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You are not ready for release...but if you have to:

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Yes, the skewer thing would be neat to look at, but I don't think it'd make sense for huge, fat ships/stations.  So having a limit on how many blocks would allow for that effect on smaller craft or thinner sections of the larger ones, but on the bigger ones the slug would get stuck in it midway.

 

Having it able to skewer anything, though, could cause extra problems if the enemy was in front of a friendly ship/station, too....

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To my knowledge Rails guns, having strong electromagnetic application to the shot component meaning that any computerized bits would be fried, in addition to that my understanding of the explosive aspect of rail guns is the mere transfer of kinetic energy causes an explosion in that Rail guns shots in reality, and most sci-fy are solid Plugs of material.

 

I would agree with the assessment that Lightning would have to have its damage nerfed if it were to function in the way i previously expressed.

 

In Defense of my rail gun re-balance concept, it is reasonable overall to reduce rate of fire, and dps of railguns, but i think not in per shot damage.  In addition by vastly reducing rate of gun traverse, or only having some types appear as Coaxial forms this i think would be a fair trade for an artillery grade weapon. That is something that should be kept in mind that is what Rail guns are. they are not for close in knife fighting, but specialized for 15k-25k manual fire at least in my book. Other weapon systems are for the most part optimized to be used in ranges under 10k and if we all agree that Larger ships should have a reduced maneuvering and acceleration value and that small ships the opposite these proposals may be quite balanced.

 

As it stands right now are not some other weapon systems over shadowed as of now? Who uses Chain guns? Are Lasers a practical offense weapon in any degree? Are Launchers even capable of catching something other then a fighter, or intercepting a torpedo? Overall many weapons have issues, but i think to decry one that performs well while others are lack luster as needing to be nerfed i think is counter productive. I think rather weapons could use a buff as well as armor. But lest we forget The game is the devs to pursue their vision, so in a way I think our cries will go unheard.

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While computerized components would indeed be fried, most specialized shells of this nature use sturdy mechanical triggers anyways; where the initial impact from being fired arms the next mechanical trigger which detonates the explosive miliseconds after piercing through.  If you wanted to use a computerized trigger, you could potentially line the inside of the shell with a ceramic alloy or faraday cage and suspend the computerized components in a non conductive viscous fluid to reduce the impact forces and provide another barrier against any electricity traveling through the shell.  Sorry nerding out there, my mechanical engineering degree came out lol.

 

And I 150% agree with you last statement, Cario1.  There are many other balances that other weapons in the game need to be considered competitive.  I personally would love to see launcher missile speed increased.  In general I feel many weapons need a projectile speed increase.  You just have to be careful to avoid power creep making weapons too strong. 

 

As far as your railgun idea I just see it as sort of redundant since Plasma cannons/lightning with plasma damage essentially has the same role, and lightning and tesla with electric damage have the same roles as the electric railgun version.  There are also already antimatter railguns which do even more damage to hull.  I just don't see the real point other than the cool factor.  Especially if railguns end up being better all round than alternatives in that case.

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That projectile speed increase you seek, wasnt needed...until ship speeds got buffed.

Tellin ya, if they nerf ship speeds back down, missiles, machine guns, all those things that got invalidated will suddenly start functioning again. The huge ship speed buff is the problem, it has been ever since that patch hit.

 

If a sector is only 200km wide, why do we need to travel 100km+ per second...Ludicrous speed has no place in this game, not unless all sectors become one open-space, but this isnt that type of game.

 

Go to 1:20

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If a sector is only 200km wide, why do we need to travel 100km+ per second...Ludicrous speed has no place in this game, not unless all sectors become one open-space, but this isnt that type of game.

Uh, what goes 100km+ per second in this game? Even players need to be rich and dedicate systems to reach such silly speeds, and gain no advantage. Most fast ships seem to go a couple thousand kps at the high end of the spectrum. Lol, I’d like to see an AI ship go at that speed, hahaha. And give them no brakes!

 

I don’t think sectors have a size, but everything generates within a distance from the center. There are videos of people traveling (at <10kps) to reach the planets in the background; they actually exist! Oh, maybe you know what I’ve just typed? Oops.

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I would Suppose If you don't think ships should go over a certain speed, then it would reason to not build a ship that can go over the speed you desire. Like wise there are ways to giver ships over 1,000,000 Omicron but if you you don't want to nuke a target then use lesser weapons. The nice thing about creativity games is you are free to limit yourself.

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I would Suppose If you don't think ships should go over a certain speed, then it would reason to not build a ship that can go over the speed you desire. Like wise there are ways to giver ships over 1,000,000 Omicron but if you you don't want to nuke a target then use lesser weapons. The nice thing about creativity games is you are free to limit yourself.

 

Putting small engines on a large ship to limit max speed to a more sensible level would not only look stupid, but would also prevent you from being able to move as you’d be unable to get enough acceleration.  Just the act of attempting to get acceleration will result in more engines that then give higher speed.

 

Also, the AI would not play by those rules, so wouldn’t do any good and gimps you beside.

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12 days left. They have posted on steam that they want bug reports, but its feedback they need to listen to.

 

Cant help but feel like the community here is being ignored. Not a single word of response to anything. This isnt how you encourage your community...quite the opposite im worried there is no intention to shake hands with the peasants. We dont have dirty hands, we want to help you. It's kind of depressing to see this happening to a game that think its ready to call itself 1.0

 

Here's a bug that smacks you in the face the second you bother to play it:

A 5km max-range Final boss cannot shoot at a ship 25km away. Quick math.

 

 

Pardon my increasingly frustrated or sarcastic tone but it is becoming deserved. NOBODY is acknowledging the community, a huge problem for any developer is failing to reach your community.  :(

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Before AI speed got buffed, you could simply outrun any opponent with no fear. Basically nothing could touch you.

 

All that happened was AI ships got the ability to use boost, just like player ships can. Now they at least have a chance of keeping up with you (though you can still out run them 90% of the time). As far as I remember, player ship speed was unchanged. I'd hate to see AI ships go back to moving slowly because it takes a lot of the challenge out of the game. You could give them powerful weapons and shields but they'd never get in range to hit you.

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Before AI speed got buffed, you could simply outrun any opponent with no fear. Basically nothing could touch you.

 

All that happened was AI ships got the ability to use boost, just like player ships can. Now they at least have a chance of keeping up with you (though you can still out run them 90% of the time). As far as I remember, player ship speed was unchanged. I'd hate to see AI ships go back to moving slowly because it takes a lot of the challenge out of the game. You could give them powerful weapons and shields but they'd never get in range to hit you.

 

^^ THIS. 

 

The game was so boring before, just run away and shoot.  The AI ships not being slow turds has made the game so much more enjoyable.  They just need to balance the speed of small vs large ships and a lot of issues will be fixed. 

 

In reality only minor changes are needed to weapons to balance them.  The weapons could be made into so much more though with enough time and testing.

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Just sneaking in here a little.

OP is not the only one who has stated these issues. The devs have stated multiple times that they do in fact read what is being written in the forums, but dont answer because of how time consuming it is.

Its erverywhere, from past discussion threads over bugs and troubleshooting to suggestions.

With that in mind, it seems pretty clear to me that they dont see this as something that keeps the game from release and thus want to focus on the things they think need fixing before release. (Meta will always be replaced by new meta btw)

Once one has invested time and effort into a game and discussing topics with others it is relatable and understandable to be frustrated. But at the end of the day, it is the developer who has to get his vision of a project into reality. All of that aside, the original release date was Q3 2017 iirc, so yeah, its about time for a release if you ask me...

 

Another reminder: Avorion is designed to be a singleplayer game (for now at least), which makes meta kind of irrelevant as there is no competition. Reality is different and hopefully mutliplayer will have uts very own issues fixed by time, but the game was never meant to be an MMO...

 

On some of the topics:

This is everywhere. I stated my oppinion at many places before, so I will keep this very short.

-long range is cool

-speed is cool

--> AI needs fixing, not range and speed

--> enemies were rebalanced, bosses were not, they need to be adjusted to the changed the game has gone through...

--> manouverabillity should be nerfed on big ships, not speed (!)

--> range damage fall off instead i f range decrease

--> Multiplayer is a different topic, i see thw biggest issues with the missing (real) pvp, connection and stabillity and also that bigger is better meta that pisses me off

 

Thank you for reading! :)

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Before AI speed got buffed, you could simply outrun any opponent with no fear. Basically nothing could touch you.

 

All that happened was AI ships got the ability to use boost, just like player ships can. Now they at least have a chance of keeping up with you (though you can still out run them 90% of the time). As far as I remember, player ship speed was unchanged. I'd hate to see AI ships go back to moving slowly because it takes a lot of the challenge out of the game. You could give them powerful weapons and shields but they'd never get in range to hit you.

 

That's because your weapons reach up to 25km and their usual attack range is 5km, its clear as crystal how this is taking away any chance of balance.

 

Again, youre misdirecting blame to the speed changes (which need reverting). Players need slowing down as well as having shorter range weapons, this will make combat engagements harder to get away from and more balanced. Making everything faster is not EVER going to make them catch you, and break the game more. Instead, slowing the players down and removing the ludicrous weapon ranges allows for easier solutions to balance.

 

There is no reason you or the AI should be playing RoadRunner and Wile Coyote with each other until youre hundreds of km away from the sector. With how things are now, there is no dogfighting, just buggy looking cat and mouse chases.

 

It behaves like a broken game. And this is why if this issue isnt resolved in the 11 days left, it wont be possible for me to leave a positive review, on a clearly broken game that i wanted to leave a positive review on until these changes came in.

 

I'd call this broken behavior a bug, but ya know its not like theyre posting on steam that they want us to report bugs or anything.

 

Sadly at this stage my prediction is that they totally ignore everybody, completely fail to make a connection of any kind with the community, and are only interested in bug reports specifically revolving around Crashes, doesnt matter if they put out a busted game, so long as it doesnt crash its fine. Everythings fine.

 

this-is-fine-jpg.jpeg

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--> manouverabillity should be nerfed on big ships, not speed (!)

 

I keep feeling myself going back and forth on this.  On the one hand, I feel like small ships are always going to be inferior so long as they are not able to out maneuver and outrun large ships, but on the other hand, the devs aren't wrong about big ships being capable of higher speeds.  Just look at Naval ships.  A US Naval Aircraft Carrier is more than capable of reaching speeds that leaves the rest of the ships in its fleet behind, but in the short run, the rest of the ships are capable of reaching their maxes much faster and leave the carrier behind.  If they're going over enough of a distance, then the carrier can eventually catch up and surpass them.

 

I'd be willing to give the maneuverability nerf to large ships a try first.  And maybe a nerf to acceleration for them as well?  That way they can't just boost out of a string of weapons fire as easily.  Small craft may need a boost to accel as well, though.  Edit: Actually, I'm thinking the nerf to large ship accel I'd like to see is a nerf to their accel while boosting.  That might work.

 

That's because your weapons reach up to 25km and their usual attack range is 5km, its clear as crystal how this is taking away any chance of balance.

 

Again, youre misdirecting blame to the speed changes (which need reverting). Players need slowing down as well as having shorter range weapons, this will make combat engagements harder to get away from and more balanced. Making everything faster is not EVER going to make them catch you, and break the game more. Instead, slowing the players down and removing the ludicrous weapon ranges allows for easier solutions to balance.

 

There is no reason you or the AI should be playing RoadRunner and Wile Coyote with each other until youre hundreds of km away from the sector. With how things are now, there is no dogfighting, just buggy looking cat and mouse chases.

 

While I agree that the ships shouldn't be chasing each other around like Wile Coyote and Roadrunner, I do not agree with nerfing weapon range.  I do not want this game to turn into a dogfighter with capital ships where they have to be scraping each other's paint to get in weapons range.  Large ships should be able to hit at long range.  They just shouldn't be able to get out of the way as easily.  Dogfighting should be up to the fighters and smaller ships.

 

As mentioned above, I think I'd be willing to give maneuverability and acceleration nerfs to large ships and potentially acceleration boosts to small ships a try and see how that works out.

 

I'd call this broken behavior a bug, but ya know its not like theyre posting on steam that they want us to report bugs or anything.

 

That kind of stuff is called balancing, not bugs.  Two different animals.

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You need to fix these major issues which will definitely have a negative impact on the current version of the game, and peoples review scores.

These are MANDATORY before you call this game 1.0.

 

1. The Cat and Mouse chasing AI which see's ships flying 100's of KM away needs removing, it doesnt work! Put the old AI behavior back in.

2. Slow the ships speeds back down to what they were. The speed buffs were bad and are completely unnessacary in a game like this when sectors are so small. There is no reason for me to travel 100km per second in this game, PERIOD. Ship speeds right now make Missile, short range machine gun weaponry, torpedo's HARMLESS (lets face it EVERYTHING apart from lightning and rail), completely useless! Running away from combat should not be so easy. You can find more information about this here: https://www.avorion.net/forum/index.php/topic,6091.0.html

3. Nerf Lightning and Rail weapon range, these 2 weapons hold the combat engine hostage. With range nerfs, and ship speeds brought down, we will be able to properly engage in combat that is both harder to escape from, allows proper dogfighting to work, and allows us to enjoy all weapon types, not just Lightning and Rail every single game. EASY fix right there.

4. We cannot host multiplayer servers because of a huge hemorrhaging of our bandwidth, please pay more attention to the posts made by Goshen on this matter:

https://www.avorion.net/forum/index.php/topic,6061.0.html

When each player costs so much bandwidth, even with top internet service providers, the bandwidth leak is unmanageable.

Every, single,  version of Avorion for the last year and a half has had this major problem, and you seem to be not listening or not bothering.

 

I am worried by announcing 1.0, that you have simply lost the passion to develop. If that actually IS the case, at least fix these issues before you dare call it complete, else you are simply walking away from what is currently, visibly a very faulty product.

 

I want to leave a positive review on Avorion, but i started another game a few days ago and within 6 hours i stopped playing because i just couldnt stand the AI flying 100's of KM's everytime it engages in battle anymore, i was sick of it. It looks to me to be in a broken state. Right now...cant play this.

 

Do not release with these issues still here. These issues in particular will determine wether i recommend, or not recomment the game. I want to praise Avorion and play it with my friends, but you're making it reeeal difficult.

You are not ready for release until you address these game breakers.

 

 

Dear SnakeWildlife,

 

first of all, we would like to thank you for your feedback. We do not take it for granted that someone take the time to tell us about their problems. We would like to respond to the points you mentioned and hopefully help you further. 

 

You mentioned that the speed of ships bothers you. We have adjusted this by reducing the speed of enemies in the outer sectors and at lower difficulty levels. 

Regarding your objections to the range of Lightning and Rail Weapons we can tell you that we are already working on it and will not disregard it in any case. 

I would also like to tell you something about the bandwidth problem. We have known for quite some time that this problem occurs. Unfortunately there is no simple solution possible. Therefore we ask you and the rest of the community for a little patience. We definitely have it on the screen.

 

I would also like to share more good news with you.

We are already releasing a patch today with which we are correcting many issues. This will not be the last one. We want to assure you and the community that we have not lost our dedication to Avorion. Every day, we work to provide you and everyone else with the best possible gaming experience. We are of course very sorry if there are any discrepancies. Unfortunately, it is also not in our power to adjust the game in such a way that everyone is satisfied. I hope you can understand that a little bit. Nevertheless, we would like to respond to as many wishes as possible. We just have to look at how much sense it makes for everyone.

Regarding your worries that we won't be bothered after the release, I personally just want to say: I hope not! I've just been hired recently, so that would really be very unfortunate for me. :D

Anyways, I would like to give you the opportunity to further discuss the problems you have noticed. Therefore you can ping me on Discord at any time. Of course you can still communicate with us here in the forum, but I would kindly ask you to stay constructive. I can assure you, we read your objections and also the objections of the others. I hope that I could help you at least a little bit. As already mentioned, you are welcome to contact me directly if you have any open questions.

 

With best wishes, Sue

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-snip-

 

Thank you for taking the time to respond Sue, and do pardon my frustration as the lack of communication before this very short-away launch was becoming extremely worrying. Several games in the past that i have helped work on have behaved in ways which shuts down production and stops completely and it ends up not working. (This was a fate suffered by Firefall as staff could never agree on how the game was supposed to play)

 

We will check out the changes and report any feedback. 

 

This line of communication between player>and<developer is what the community needs! Dont be afraid to get involved with us, if any of the dev squad are at heads with a decision of how something should work, just open a poll or something and ask us! :)  We love the game. Any involvement of the peoples thoughts on things which are contentious, is what can help you make beneficial changes and satisfy the community. Thats the differance between making a decent game and a great game.

 

In the end it IS your game. But its not a bad thing to stroll through the feedback and pick out ideas or chat with us.  :)

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I keep feeling myself going back and forth on this.  On the one hand, I feel like small ships are always going to be inferior so long as they are not able to out maneuver and outrun large ships, but on the other hand, the devs aren't wrong about big ships being capable of higher speeds.  Just look at Naval ships.  A US Naval Aircraft Carrier is more than capable of reaching speeds that leaves the rest of the ships in its fleet behind, but in the short run, the rest of the ships are capable of reaching their maxes much faster and leave the carrier behind.  If they're going over enough of a distance, then the carrier can eventually catch up and surpass them.

 

I'd be willing to give the maneuverability nerf to large ships a try first.  And maybe a nerf to acceleration for them as well?  That way they can't just boost out of a string of weapons fire as easily.  Small craft may need a boost to accel as well, though.  Edit: Actually, I'm thinking the nerf to large ship accel I'd like to see is a nerf to their accel while boosting.  That might work.

 

 

Sorry Fury but I have  to call you out on this one. Your using modern naval capabilities argument in a way that I feel does not apply to justify bigger should be faster in space.

 

1)Your Medium is different - the ocean produces a much higher resistance - which contributes to the max speeds (space really doesn't until you get to some very significant speeds double digit percentages of light I believe - and even then it is very little)

 

2)The modern US Aircraft carrier uses Nuclear Reactor produced steam for propulsion and for overall power generation, compared to most other ships which do not, with the exception of two I believe now retired US cruisers, and some russian ships - and of course modern submarines but those are slower for other reasons.

 

3)Age of designs - this can play a portion of the effects your are referencing - a lot of us navy ships are older designs then you think. Though I suspect the Zumwalt class destroyer with electric driven turbines could very easily keep up with the carriers over long distances.

 

Your statement of the smaller ships reaching their max speeds faster and summarizing they have faster acceleration in short distance goes along with my point - in space up until incredible speeds  there is no resistance so those smaller ships could maintain that faster acceleration indefinitely. Your on the right path but I think made the wrong initial  conclusion to justify why bigger ships should be faster.

 

Happy to discuss this in my thread of why I argue against bigger ships being better in all fields - happy to be wrong and learn something :)

https://www.avorion.net/forum/index.php/topic,5977.0.html

 

However, I do agree with NOT nerfing weapon ranges. The hit scan capabilities of the high DPS railgun need nerfed because as they are, they are king for many reasons - also discussed in my thread (and I don't feel like repeating myself), but keeping long ranges is fine, but make it skill shot based. Such as the cannons with their much slower shots would be perfect for this. Hard to get a  hit, but a really nice big booming reward when they do connect.

 

 

Boosting in ships over a certain size need to be brought under control as well. Large ships should not get the benefit of condensed firepower - acceleration, manueverability, performance overdrive (boosting) engagement control (ability to disengage and re-engage due to superior max speed, accel), and massive HP pools. It makes them king, and why ever build smaller?

 

But again it depends on the devs vision on the game. I honestly would be happy if boosting, and acceleration to ship size scaling  were configurable options so players could tailor to their preferences.

 

Fighters suffer a similar problem (Again also in my thread). Fighters really are a power projection tool (along with a carrier) and establish zones of far reaching control with the ability to engage rapidly , however being unable to keep up with the very things they are supposed to take out means they don't have much tactical or strategic purpose beyond staying near a target area for the few AI ships that decide to engage at close range in the game.

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Sorry Fury but I have  to call you out on this one. Your using modern naval capabilities argument in a way that I feel does not apply to justify bigger should be faster in space.

 

1)Your Medium is different - the ocean produces a much higher resistance - which contributes to the max speeds (space really doesn't until you get to some very significant speeds double digit percentages of light I believe - and even then it is very little)

 

2)The modern US Aircraft carrier uses Nuclear Reactor produced steam for propulsion and for overall power generation, compared to most other ships which do not, with the exception of two I believe now retired US cruisers, and some russian ships - and of course modern submarines but those are slower for other reasons.

 

3)Age of designs - this can play a portion of the effects your are referencing - a lot of us navy ships are older designs then you think. Though I suspect the Zumwalt class destroyer with electric driven turbines could very easily keep up with the carriers over long distances.

 

Your statement of the smaller ships reaching their max speeds faster and summarizing they have faster acceleration in short distance goes along with my point - in space up until incredible speeds  there is no resistance so those smaller ships could maintain that faster acceleration indefinitely. Your on the right path but I think made the wrong initial  conclusion to justify why bigger ships should be faster.

 

Happy to discuss this in my thread of why I argue against bigger ships being better in all fields - happy to be wrong and learn something :)

https://www.avorion.net/forum/index.php/topic,5977.0.html

 

Can't say I'm 100% convinced, yet, but your points do help.

 

Don't get me wrong... I want to be wrong on this.  I want the large ships to move slowly as well.  I just don't want them to be like that "just because", you know?

 

I haven't replied sooner cause I feel like my brain has been non-functional lately.  Still is, but wanted to at least say something.  Been working on redesigning someone's Victory class Star Destroyer lately and it's been draining me mentally cause I am just not that great at creative stuff.  But the choices on the workshop have been annoying me lately, so....

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All good fury, I have been the same way on some of the topics. Some times at the end of the day the brain is goo and doesn't want to do anything lol.

 

There is a reply from Zerenity (I think) that I need to reply to in my comprehensive post, but I myself have been much too busy with family and work.

 

Since he threw in a formula I will respond in kind  so you can see some of the math behind it. I just haven't finished my reply yet to post. And... I am not a mathematician, so I will probably be wrong but hopefully close :)

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1.0 has released, time has ran out. And battle after battle, the AI plays cat and mouse with itself, and i have to join in that chase if i want to battle.

 

You were not ready for release, but you released anyway when you should have delayed.

 

Do you know how frustrating it is to witness a faulty AI / system  in which after most battles, you have to travel hundreds of KM to return back to the center of the sector? So far that objects and the corresponding UI elements no longer appear visible.

 

Now sure you can argue 'you could just warp out and back in to return to the center'. But if you have to come up with an excuse, that confirms that this is a problem. You can throw in as many coulds/woulds/shoulds as you like. We told you about this and gave this feedback multiple times over a period of about 9 months, this is an 'obvious, in your face' problem that should have been nailed out before you called Avorion 1.0.

 

This is why i say you dont pay attention to the community.  Well my word is my word, Im out. How can you even be talking about DLC's at a time like this.

notreadyforrelease.thumb.jpg.19a414f1af34e30de29ba491808e5ff0.jpg

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Version Number below 1.0:

"There is this issue, but I will play anyways"

 

Literally no change except  version number is 1.0 now:

"I am out"

 

All you get from me on that topic is LOL.

 

 

But seriously now:

does anyone have experience on how this behaves on different difficulty settings?

Because my recent galaxies were about 30 hours on expert and 100+ hours on Veteran and I have not encountered this AI behaviour even a single time.

This bothers me for a while now but I didnt bring it up because toxic reactions are almost forced on this topic, but seriously:

[glow=red,2,300]to how many of you has this actually happened?

[/glow]to me, as i said, not a single time.

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The furthest I have experienced some ships going is 120km away, and It was because I jumped into a sector and basically AFKed in a ship that wouldn't be at risk of dying.  Other than that this pretty much never happens to me either...  It may be an inconvenience but it doesn't bother me since most mid to large ships can cover that 100km distance in little time. If they go that far away then you don't have to worry about them anyways.  Rails and lightning turrets don't seem to be crazy OP anymore either.

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The furthest I have experienced some ships going is 120km away, and It was because I jumped into a sector and basically AFKed in a ship that wouldn't be at risk of dying.  Other than that this pretty much never happens to me either...  It may be an inconvenience but it doesn't bother me since most mid to large ships can cover that 100km distance in little time. If they go that far away then you don't have to worry about them anyways.  Rails and lightning turrets don't seem to be crazy OP anymore either.

 

What difficulty are you playing on?

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I have seen them chasing off a number of times to the point where they disappear off screen they’ve gone so far. Sometimes one manages to destroy the other before they get quite that far, sometimes not.  They quite often would do it to me with me being the chaser, too, but I normally have the firepower and accuracy to take them out before they get more than 50 km or so.  I believe I first started noticing this behavior back when they released the patch that modified their behavior to want to stay at max range.

 

But that was also from before the later patch where they said they attempted to fix that.  Since then, I have literally been spending all of my time in build mode, so I can’t say if it was fixed or not.

 

I play on Expert.

 

TBH, though?  Large ships shouldn’t be zooming around and maneuvering like fighter craft dancing around each other. Large craft should be more or less slugging it back and forth.

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