Nerf manoeuvrability please. This will fix major issues with the game.

[SnakeWildlife]

Hi there, old gamer here who has fallen in love with Avorion.

 

I am calling for a rollback on the changes to ship speeds and agility.

I was enjoying the game for many years up until our manoeuvrability got given a huge buff a few patches ago. Now we can turn fast and boost away at insane speeds without velocity modifications.

 

These changes have obliterated any form of balance in the combat of your game.

What does this mean?

1. Out-running or out-manoeuvring high speedtorpedo's is easy peasy.

2. All projectile based weapons (Machine guns, plasma, etc) are difficult to use on Ai or players in combat, rendering them useless.

3. All missile systems fire rockets at very slow speeds making it impossible to hit moving targets, even Seeker missiles will never find or catch up with their targets. rendering them useless.

4. All fighters can easily be outrun making them impracticle in most situations unless they have rail/lightning.

5. All bosses in the game cannot catch up to you or get within proper distance to pose any kind of threat to you, nullifying their threat.

6. Even AI becomes broken, as battles start to lead you over 250km+ from the center of the sector as you play cat-and-mouse, rather than proper dogfighting.

7. Boosting away from ships which block your ability to jump, takes seconds, no problem.

Thats just a small handfull of the major issues. Your AI is not going to compete with humans, if they cannot even succeed to get into range.

 

This forces players down a familiar....and at this point extremely boring path:

The only valid weapons now are Rail / Lightning. Every single game, it's the same end result.

 

How to fix this in one realistic stone? Get rid of these extremely exaggerated speed changes, revert them back and slow players down even further to force them into accepting the combat engagements and making them less escapeable. Slower ship speeds allow the tactical and statistical aspects of your combat to shine.

It's not a fight if the opponent cannot fight back.

It's not a fight if you can escape in 3 seconds flat.

It's not an ambush if you can get into warp distance in 5 seconds flat. The whole point of an ambush is THE NET thrown over you, the restriction of movement.

It's just not a fight anymore! This has killed the game for me, i hate to say that because Avorion is my baby.

 

When you are engaged with an enemy ship, that enemy must be allowed to fight back in the exact same ranges. Every battle right now feels like the end of the last star wars movie...that was a baaad movie.

[WSY]

I have discussed this very same thing so I agree. It is covered in my comprehensive analysis post.

 

https://www.avorion.net/forum/index.php/topic,5977.0.html

 

Yes it's way to long, but comes to the same conclusion about the hit scan weapons (rails, lightning etc)  being superior due to the speed of ships.

 

Not a big deal if you had heavy hitter battleships mixed with picket ships, but when all ships come at you and after burn around in different directions, it also takes way from enjoyment of the game. However they did post in latest patch that long range ships will stay at range so I need to test it out.

[TESL4]

I can agree with this post.  While it is fun to be maneuverable like that, Medium/large ships should NOT handle like dogfighting interceptors.  Its real easy to do thanks to the overlapping as well.  I'm all for small ships (like slot size 1-5) having great agility and speed as that would actually make them viable as scouts, tackling ships, and able to avoid the heavy hitting non hit scan weapons.  It could be as easy as adding a modifier to ships based on the slot size.

 

As an EXAMPLE:

Ship Size          Ship Agility Modifier          Ship Max Speed Modifier        Ship Acceleration Modifier

1                          x1.0                                              x2.0                                                        x2.0

2                          x1.0                                              x2.0                                                        x1.75

3                          x1.0                                              x1.75                                                    x1.5

4                          x1.0                                              x1.5                                                        x1.25

5                          x1.0                                              x1.25                                                    x1.0

6                          x0.825                                        x1.0                                                        x0.825

7                          x0.8                                              x0.95                                                    x0.8

8                          x0.75                                          x0.9                                                        x0.75

9                          x0.625                                        x0.85                                                    x0.7

10                        x0.5                                              x0.8                                                        x0.625

11                        x0.375                                        x0.65                                                    x0.5

12                        x0.325                                        x0.5                                                        x0.45

13                        x0.3                                              x0.475                                                  x0.4

14                        x0.25                                          x0.45                                                    x0.3

15+                    x0.15                                          x0.425                                                  x0.2

 

The blocks would still have the same stat bonuses that they give, there would just be these modifiers applied after it calculates the stats from the blocks.  This would hopefully make ships have their proper "roles".  Just an idea for the devs, or if there is a modder out there this would be a great one to add to my workshop personally. 

 

As far as projectile vs hitscan weapons go, I believe that projectile weapons need a buff in damage.  As it stands now, ships can be made very tanky already (especially large ones).  Slower projectile weapons such as missiles, cannons could use a huge damage buff to make them "capital killers", where as medium speed projectile weapons such as autocannons, plasma, bolters could get a slightly lesser buff.  Hitscan weapons could remain the same or even lower damage if needed making them great for dealing with fast agile ships without instantly destroying them.

 

Just my 2 imperial space cents...

 

[SnakeWildlife]

Totally agree with you TESL4, ship mass/size should play a huge role in what purpose your ship is built for. Before the changes to maneuverability, it was already kind of like that.

[SneakyTacts]

I also agree with TESL4’s well-made post.

[Sir Charles]

Very nice thoughts, TESL4!

I support changes, it should feel more 'realistic' at the end of the day.

Big ships having greater max speed is fine! But why are they more agile than small ones and even enabled to accelerate much faster?

For more intel on the topic, I will just leave a link to another thread here, where this has been discussed before ;)

https://www.avorion.net/forum/index.php/topic,5420.0.html

[phezzan]

After reading above... I was thinking about HP vs Mass... But really it's dps vs mass.

 

How much do turrets weigh?

AFAICT, turrets weigh nothing but in order to get 'slots' you have to build Hull/Cargo/Etc and add Turret systems ... and that increases Mass.

 

I imagine that's pretty complicated to balance out - especially with the huge variance in turret dps vs slots.

 

[SnakeWildlife]

After reading above... I was thinking about HP vs Mass... But really it's dps vs mass.

 

How much do turrets weigh?

AFAICT, turrets weigh nothing but in order to get 'slots' you have to build Hull/Cargo/Etc and add Turret systems ... and that increases Mass.

 

I imagine that's pretty complicated to balance out - especially with the huge variance in turret dps vs slots.

 

You stumble onto a good point, larger turrets should be adding to the mass. you can currently have a huge turret, on a super-tiny ship. There is no effect on maneouvarability with the turrets used.

[Sir Charles]

you can currently have a huge turret, on a super-tiny ship. There is no effect on maneouvarability with the turrets used.

 

I See your Point, Bit this does Not and to netter Game Balance. In fact , it does Support the Idea of „bigger is better“.

Small Ships are affected by large turrets in a different way btw, you will notice if you put a huge cannon on a small ship, that it will not be helpful, but rather the opposite.

Small ships are thus limited in the weaponry they can use by slots and by the weapon types (just try out the cannon example, you will se what I mean). They shouldn’t get additional disadvantages but rather more unique advantages like cloaking...

[SneakyTacts]

I was also thinking mass would be a better determinant than number of upgrade slots. The number of slots is not necessarily proportional to the size of the ship. Mass is of the focus of this topic, anyway, so it’s the best determinant of acceleration and max speed.

[TESL4]

Very nice thoughts, TESL4!

I support changes, it should feel more 'realistic' at the end of the day.

Big ships having greater max speed is fine! But why are they more agile than small ones and even enabled to accelerate much faster?

For more intel on the topic, I will just leave a link to another thread here, where this has been discussed before ;)

https://www.avorion.net/forum/index.php/topic,5420.0.html

 

The way the modifiers work for the agility is say if a 14-slot large ship manages to get 2.0 roll/pitch/yaw, the modifier of 0.25 would be multiplied making the new roll/pitch/yaw equal to 0.5 aka slower.  Acceleration and max speed modifiers would work the same way.  The reason for the realllly small ships getting a bonus (slot 1-5) is because those ships tend to be super weak and 1-shotable in areas closer to the core.  The speed and agility bonus would make them more viable there.  You could actually utilize corvette swarms more effectively.

 

[TESL4]

I was also thinking mass would be a better determinant than number of upgrade slots. The number of slots is not necessarily proportional to the size of the ship. Mass is of the focus of this topic, anyway, so it’s the best determinant of acceleration and max speed.

 

Mass would be better overall imo as well as there would be a nice smooth gradient too, but you have to be careful since starting out, things like iron and naonite are super "chunky" so building medium to larger ships with those materials could potentially feel like trying to rotate an astroid with a fart cannon. 

 

Maybe the materials could be redone such that the materials have certian nieches like naonite having the best warp cores, titanium being the lightest, xanion having the best shields, ect.  but thats for a different topic (sorry for rambling).

 

[SneakyTacts]

...

Maybe the materials could be redone such that the materials have certian nieches like naonite having the best warp cores, titanium being the lightest, xanion having the best shields, ect.  but thats for a different topic (sorry for rambling).

I think we all like rambles here, haha. Someone should make posts in the Suggestions section about the two things you’re saying in here.

[Morbo513]

As a returning player I've yet to build a decent ship, but one of my main criticisms of the game was how building your ship for speed and maneuverability was far less rewarding (mechanically) than a slow, hulking borg cube. It was certainly a lot more fun to play with a nimble ship and run circles around your targets, but incredibly frustrating when your damage output was negligible compared to your opponents' shields and hull, just because of the size differential.

 

If the ability to avoid getting hit through maneuvering and agility is practically nullified by the game's mechanics then it becomes a soulless stats game. 

 

I don't know exactly how the recently-changed mechanics affect the viability of evasive action or building ships for speed, alpha-strikes and not getting hit but I digress - having ships be slow and lumbering by necessity undermines the creativity afforded to the player in designing their ships.

[Palad1n]

I have discussed this very same thing so I agree. It is covered in my comprehensive analysis post.

 

https://www.avorion.net/forum/index.php/topic,5977.0.html

 

Yes it's way to long, but comes to the same conclusion about the hit scan weapons (rails, lightning etc)  being superior due to the speed of ships.

 

Not a big deal if you had heavy hitter battleships mixed with picket ships, but when all ships come at you and after burn around in different directions, it also takes way from enjoyment of the game. However they did post in latest patch that long range ships will stay at range so I need to test it out.

 

A big part of the issue though, is that most times you enter a sector that is filled with pirates, they are already instantly firing on you as you load in, especially spamming torpedoes / missiles, thus forcing the player to burst away under speed so they can have a moment to assess.

 

Yes, the game is very unbalanced and becomes boring fast due to many of these already well thought out posts. I think the community has been trying to get this across to the devs for years but they seem to keep going in the complete opposite direction.

 

I am honestly really surprised that there is still a 50% damage nerf for weapons that can "auto target" which again, makes zero sense, especially when we have no way to select multiple targets and designate weapon groups to those targets. 

[FuryoftheStars]

Pretty much agree here, too.  I actually wouldn't want the overall max speeds reduced unless we get the ability to issue orders to the ship we currently occupy (if it's going to take longer to get from one side to the other of a sector, then I want to be able to at least issue a movement command so I don't have to be monitoring that ship's movements the whole time).

 

But yeah, love the idea of the modifiers to agility, acceleration, and such based on ship mass.  Just wouldn't want ships to max out at drone speeds as then it would take forever to get from where you warped in/were just working to that station on the other side of the sector... unless of course we can start issuing move orders to player controlled craft.

[WSY]

Palad1n makes a good point with weapons banks.

 

We do not have the ability for multi target engagement save for auto targeting. Could be some interesting opportunity here.

 

As for the pirate fleet on top of you when you jump in. I can also agree that is an issue and that justifies some need for boost. The question is, is that more a risk you as a player take end game by not having a big enough ship or fleet.to go exploring in? Early game you should have the boost and the speed so it isn't as relevant, but late game it is an issue.

 

What if it is because you always emerge mid sector? Change the jump so it's a little outside the sector? This gives a little more options with opportunity and would address some of the issues.

[The_White_Whale]

It's not just combat and projectile weapons that suffer due to increased agility, immersion does as well. Flying my ship you would have no idea that it could rival Warhammer 40K Dreadnought for size, you would just think, 'hmm, this heavy fighter could do with a bit more strafe speed'.

 

 

It also rail roads you into weapon choices, the slower projectiles being automatically rejected leaving only a few guns viable to use.

[Korr]

In all fairness, I agree to a point, but for the devs it's a balancing-issue.

If the devs do adjust this, I hope they do it wisely and not mess up other things, and create other issues.

But yeah.  Massive ships seem to be overly nimble.

 

And for top speed - with boosters deployed, it appears to be linked directly to the NUMBER of engines.

However, if you run outa energy its game over.

 

 

For an interim fix, I sugest using a Jump-Inhibitor and ensuring that YOU are fast yourself.

 

Maybe keep in mind, this game is NOT purpose-centred on PVP.