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mandatory gunsizes?*edit fixed some grammar*


oriondean
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Hello, I recently progressed to naonite in my game, then progressed to trinium so I could put trinium armor on my ships and fit naonite/trinium guns.

I was pretty dismayed when all the chainguns, bolters, cannons, or railguns I could build or buy took 2 or more slots.  I build smaller ships (the biggest ships I have and will ever build will have 7 upgrade slots) and most of the ships I will ever fly will have 5-6 upgrade slots. the reasons are :

 

1 I hate trying to drive a stardestroyer or a super star destroyer through an asteroid field or some ship of equivalent size.

2 if your guns have a range of 5km and your ship is 5km long the gun at the stern(back) of the ship can't engage anything on the bow(front) of the ship.

 

yes it seems silly that you would want a gun at the stern of a ship to engage something at the bow. and yes your guns at the bow engage front targets, and your guns at the stern engage back targets, BUT it illustrates my point that HUUUUGE ships are actually a stupidity to make without good reason.  (ensign we are on the commandroom of the ship at the front take this note and hand deliver it to the commanding engineer at the engines at the back of the ship, the ship is 5km long, get running!)  the only reason to build rediculusly long ships is if its a generational ship thing, or you have built a ship that can house an entire ecosystem inside the cavernous hydroponic cargobay of the ship. (the ithorian worldships come to mind)

 

why am I talking about huge ships when I was talking about gun sizes? because only big ships can fit the big guns. I would like to be able to fit small railguns and small bolters and small cannons on my small ships.

 

the point: I feel it would be ok for the equipment docks to continue selling cannons that have a minimum slot size of 3 and railguns that have a minimum slot size of 2, but I would like to see in the turret factories the ability to build railguns of a slot size 1 and cannons of a slot size 1, I would also like to be able to build naonite, or avorion chainguns with a slot size of 1.  then the guys that like small ships can still enjoy the different flavors of guns that are now being pushed into the boys that like big ships camp.

 

an alternate idea: make computer blocks offer a CRAPTON of cpu power (atleast 2000cpu from a computer block that is 0.1x0.1x0.1 in dimention) so you can fit a tiny computer block into a small ship and be able to fit the bigger guns (railguns, slot 2 or slot 3 chainguns, yes even cannons) on smaller ships because that computer core increased your upgrade slot limit.

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I'd suggest instead of mandating the size, allow it to be editable, either with some kind of consumable, or at a turret factory. Although I do think capital class weapons (like cannons, maybe railguns and lightning turrets) should have a minimum size of 2.

 

By the patch notes, the only things changes by slot size are range, single shot damage, and weapon handling (turn rate and such). Therefore, say, you buy a consumable at an equipment dock, use it, and it brings up a UI to change the size +/- 1 slot for example, for a flat cost. That way if you've got a really good cannon that doesn't fit in with your main battery on your warship, you can fix that. Or find a great chaingun you want to fit on a smaller ship, then you can. Help remove the randomness from the game for a slight cost to the player.

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How does a larger slot size prevents the use on a smaller ship?

It doesn't really, unless the ship doesn't have a physical space to place the turret.

Then I don't see a reason behind the thread. There's no effective ship size, that would have a problem with being equipped by multi-slot turrets. They're also proportionally more powerful than 1-slot ones, and seem to require relatively less operators. If the author simply wants them for aesthetic purposes, then one can easily use 1-slot turrets from lower materials...

 

Not that I'm trying to defend the current model, since I believe that Turret Factories should only be used to produce Common-grade Turrets or generate blueprints from the Turrets found or fused, and those can be used to replicate turrets with player's own production efforts the same way fighters are.

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smaller ships have fewer upgrade slots

so if you say have a ship that has 3 upgrade slots, what do you put in? 3 turret upgrades? giving you 12 turret slots? now each ogonite railgun takes 3 turret slots to fit. you now have 4 railguns on your 3 upgrade slot small ship, and you can only jump in a 2 sector radius around your ship and can't see hidden mass sectors or fit a trading system. now lets say you go the other way and use your 3 upgrade slots to fit 1 trading system, 1 FTL upgrade giving you 6 radius jumprange, and a hidden mass scanner, now you have 2 turret slots to enjoy, so you can only fit a single trinium railgun on your small ship. and like above, I refuse to drive larger and larger ships through an asteroid field trying to mine.

*edit, added* or trying to open those hidden caches or chase down a pirate.

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smaller ships have fewer upgrade slots

so if you say have a ship that has 3 upgrade slots, what do you put in? 3 turret upgrades? giving you 12 turret slots? now each ogonite railgun takes 3 turret slots to fit. you now have 4 railguns on your 3 upgrade slot small ship, and you can only jump in a 2 sector radius around your ship and can't see hidden mass sectors or fit a trading system. now lets say you go the other way and use your 3 upgrade slots to fit 1 trading system, 1 FTL upgrade giving you 6 radius jumprange, and a hidden mass scanner, now you have 2 turret slots to enjoy, so you can only fit a single trinium railgun on your small ship. and like above, I refuse to drive larger and larger ships through an asteroid field trying to mine.

*edit, added* or trying to open those hidden caches or chase down a pirate.

- Such a small 3-slot ship is at best a disposable cannon fodder or anti-fighter, anti-missile screen. It is simply not feasible for use by a player. Even when starting at the Iron galaxy region, it is almost impossible to outfit it in such a way for the "VERY weak ship" warning to disappear.

 

- Turret upgrades give up to 6 slots each depending on rarity, plus each ship is granted two slots for free (1 armed, 1 unarmed and 1 arbitrary), thus the maximum loadout for a small 3-slot ship is 20 slots. This is enough for 6 heavy turrets and two Point Defense turrets, which is pretty much two times over what such a ship can even handle in power demand and potential recoil.

 

- Small ships also can easily take benefit from Computation Mainframes to gain more module slots and Hyperspace Cores to acquire practical fleet jumping ranges, which easily ramp up benefits when used in low-mass and small-volume builds, but come at the great expense with an uncertain benefit when used in massive capital ships.

 

- While you see a necessity in smaller weapon turrets, you should also realize, that increase in slots also produce proportional growth in power. That means, that you'll have to expect these micro-versions of turrets to be severely weaker, compared to their full-scale counterparts, otherwise these will overpowered. However in that case the difference is only aesthetic, i.e. you place several weaker turrets instead of a single turret of an equivalent firepower. Like I've already said, if aesthetics are paramount, then use lower-tier Naonite and Titanium turrets. At least there's no harm in losing these, when a single salvo from a cannon-equipped NPC will deflate you mini-gunship instantly.

 

- Your refusal is your own problem. Ability to maneuver trough an asteroid field depends more on your own perception of 3D-space and on the proper layout of your ship, than on its sheer size. A well-balanced ship has to dedicate roughly 15-20% of its volume to maneuvering elements (gyros and thrusters) - 3 to 4 times the volume of its mainsail Engines. You can maneuver your ship with less dedication to proper equipment, but then its just takes more time. Only a ship of 10 module slots or greater realistically might begin to have issues in navigating the asteroid field. A ship of 8 modules or so still can pass right trough one in a straight line as long as it is pointed into a gap with clearly visible background space. On the other hand, chasing down a pirate in a 3-slot ship is plain suicide.

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Yeah, slot size should at least be modifiable, at least in turret factories, so someone could make little guns for little ships... and big guns for big ships !

It would be a slider on one of the "basic materials" such as steel or aluminum that would increase and decrease sizes of turrets (therefore increasing/decreasing damage and range). Should be simple-ish to implement... maybe even in an existing mod like Weapon Engineering (for in-ship modification) or Extended Turret Factory (for factory making and eventual modification) ?

Turret resizing for existing weapons would also be a plus, to not waste loot (especially loot considered as average or unfit for current fleet ship sizes if there's a gap in the sizes).

 

and you can only jump in a 2 sector radius around your ship

Getting a fourth slot by adding a little hyperspace core is tempting ;).

And also, understand that that ogonite 3-slot railgun is thrice as powerful, if not more, as three 1-slots, so one 3-slot or 4-slot turret upgrade may be enough to have as much firepower as before in one railgun, plus 2 or 3 point defense turrets (hopefully in nice wide arcs to catch all torpedoes to survive :-X).

The 3-slot railgun also probably has +30% range compared to 1-slots, so you would have to approach the enemy from farther away, decreasing its hit chance ;), which is essential since driving an isolated Line Corvette-class ship in the Inner Sphere is a mighty dangerous life that not even my most fanatical CII cultists would consider (unless you are escorted by a bigger ship that goes around doing pincer attacks from behind asteroid fields), even before the invention of torpedoes.

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Yeah, slot size should at least be modifiable, at least in turret factories, so someone could make little guns for little ships... and big guns for big ships !

It would be a slider on one of the "basic materials" such as steel or aluminum that would increase and decrease sizes of turrets (therefore increasing/decreasing damage and range). Should be simple-ish to implement... maybe even in an existing mod like Weapon Engineering (for in-ship modification) or Extended Turret Factory (for factory making and eventual modification) ?

Turret resizing for existing weapons would also be a plus, to not waste loot (especially loot considered as average or unfit for current fleet ship sizes if there's a gap in the sizes).

Well, again, I simply do not see the point for such modifications to begin with. There's big guns like Cannons and Railguns and Missile Launchers, which you should use on large ships, and there's small guns like Plasma, Tesla and Lasers, which are better for smaller ships, which is reflected by their slot size. You can have a mixed fleet of Plasma/Tesla-equipped corvettes, that engage enemies forthrightly and benefit from their small size in closer-range combat, Cannon/Railgun-equipped Cruisers bombarding enemies from a distance and a Torpedo/Fighter Battleship providing support out of harm's way.

 

Introducing size changes one way or another simply removes newly developed variety in weaponry and diminishes specialization. And here we are again, with absolutely everyone and everything being equipped with Railguns.

 

 

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I think it should be added because you cannot use moltiple guns on your craft when you are to small. If i also want other stuff like hyperspace upgrades and have a small ship, then i can have like 1 turret and point defense. Then you need to choose: what turret do you want to mount? Its not possible to vary with smaller guns, so a plasma/cannon combi isn't working anymore. I know you can switch systems, but if i jump into a sector and get instant torps at me, i dont want my dpc to not work until i have sorted my systems... I think a bit of weapon variety is lost due to uneditable guns.

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@J4H3ad:

I didn't mean to say I wanted to mandate the size, I mean the size is mandated for us by the type of weapon and the material. sorry to be unclear. your suggestion though is good, thankyou.

@Kamo:

I do have some smaller ships (upgrade slot 4) that I use for transporting things and salvaging, they are so versatile I am probably going to put torpedoes on them and with a few guns, use them for anti fighter, anti missile, and light combat with smaller guns, but the torpedoes will be their big damage weapon when I attack the pirate areas and take their stuff! I just cant bring myself to put bigger guns (maybe I will fit 1 big gun, but that will be all) on my 4 slot escorts and I can't fit any big guns on my 5 slot cruiser (it has 4 turrets on its left size, 4 on its right, 2 on top, and 1 on the bottom.)

thanks for the ideas though.

@Wanderer:

that's exactly what I am talking about! allowing small ships the ability to enjoy more flavors of guns (railguns, cannons, plasma, pulse cannons, and rocket launchers) instead of only 2 flavors of attack guns, chainguns and bolters. and these odd flavors of defense guns (anti fighter, anti missile) bigger ships will fit anti fighter and anti missile guns anyway. 

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so I wanted to give a little update, I think I understand where the developer was going with PDS chainguns and anti fighter guns, because YOU CAN fight bigger ships with them.

 

Granted you won't do alot of damage, but you can do it. that makes me relax my feelings on chainguns a little. regarding anti fighter guns, they are actually a mini cannon that is very short range that CAN also shoot bigger ships than fighters. but its such short range that it doesn't quite make sense as an offensive weapon against large ships.

 

I still hold to my opinions that rail guns, cannons, and the other turrets that are *mandatorily 2 or 3 or more turret slots large* should have a 1 slot option in a turret factory for the smaller ships but I am glad that PDS chainguns and anti fighter turrets can actually engage larger ships.  I guess the developer wanted small ships to be relevant too but it didn't make sense for them to be "a smaller cannon platform". so the alternative was "A PDS, fighter screen platform with offensive capabilities to PDS and anti fighter guns". Thanks devs, and I hope my suggestion is something you will consider.

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so I wanted to give a little update, I think I understand where the developer was going with PDS chainguns and anti fighter guns, because YOU CAN fight bigger ships with them.

 

Granted you won't do alot of damage, but you can do it. that makes me relax my feelings on chainguns a little. regarding anti fighter guns, they are actually a mini cannon that is very short range that CAN also shoot bigger ships than fighters. but its such short range that it doesn't quite make sense as an offensive weapon against large ships.

 

I still hold to my opinions that rail guns, cannons, and the other turrets that are *mandatorily 2 or 3 or more turret slots large* should have a 1 slot option in a turret factory for the smaller ships but I am glad that PDS chainguns and anti fighter turrets can actually engage larger ships.  I guess the developer wanted small ships to be relevant too but it didn't make sense for them to be "a smaller cannon platform". so the alternative was "A PDS, fighter screen platform with offensive capabilities to PDS and anti fighter guns". Thanks devs, and I hope my suggestion is something you will consider.

Well, my point still stands in the same manner: You want smaller versions for heavier weapons, so that you can put more of them on a small ship or otherwise. As far as I'm concerned, there's simply no point in having that capability. This conflict of opinion brackets into several potential threads:

 

1.)You probably do NOT want for these weapons to be of comparable power rating to larger versions, which would break the balance.

 

2.)You might, albeit unlikely, want to have these weapons with proportionally lower DPS, but with otherwise similar fuctions, for example Range, which also would break the balance, because range is an important tactical value, which defines the effective quality of a weapon type. Same is certainly true for the splash-damage of Cannons and Missile Launchers or block-penetration of Railguns. Maintaining these properties would not necessarily break the balance of these smaller weapons against their large counterparts, but it WOULD break their balance against other 1-slot weapons immensely.

 

3.)You might want to have these weapons with ALL properties scaled down or removed relative to their smaller size, but then there's no point in having these weapons to begin with, as there's already weapons, that does not mandate the size increase, at least for the majority of the game, like Lasers, Teslas, Plasma and AF/PD turrets. In that case its just a redundant fiddling with logically-consistent, recently improved mechanics which will only cause retarded cases of Research Labs produce smaller weapons out of large ones and in reverse, for the sake of cosmetics.

 

You have clearly stated what you want, but you've failed to make the case for the benefits. Like I've said before, you already can use small ships with multi-slot turrets, you can use Mainframe blocks to increase the number of System modules and you can use Hyperspace Cores to remove the necessity for a Warp Drive upgrades. With all that being the case, I have absolutely no clue what is your problem.

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I wasn't making my suggestion to you, I was making it to the developers, I made my case too, I will make it again to the developers, not you.

 

some people drive smaller ships. smaller ships have fewer upgrade slots, so they also have fewer turret slots while fitting utility upgrades like cargo expanders, scanners and trading systems.

to exclude people who drive smaller ships from varieties of turrets (which can be considered a type of content in the game) doesn't seem like a good idea just because they refuse to fly bigger ships with the ability to fit more turret slots. I think there should be an option to build smaller versions for the turrets that are currently 2 or more slots. 

 

I think we can still cator to the guys that like flying bigger ships as the equipment docks and combat drops can still offer the standard size of turrets (with slot sizes of 2, 3 or larger) or the turret factories can even have functionality to alter the slot size of a turret during construction. (so you can go anywhere between 1 or 2 or 3 or XX slot size for a turret.)  Other people have had somewhat of a disagreement with me and have posted alternatives, which I enjoy. some people in this thread have agreed with me and posted alternatives anyway. others just plain old agree.  Anyways I hope you guys on the developement team can see the merit of my suggestion, if not thats ok, I still enjoy your game.

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I'll go with 10 bigger guns over 30 gun-for-ants any day on my bigger ships, thank you. And by bigger I mean 6-8 system slots ones.

 

Cannons and other capital-class weapons should never take less than 2-3 slots. To be honest, being able to equip a fighter with a cannon is silly...

That said, weapons like chainguns/bolters/whatnot should spawn at 1-4 variants at even the highest of levels. Their stats should of course match (bigger weapons having more DPS, even when including the slot requirements, aka 4 small guns will have less DPS and range than one big, but big gun will have far inferior turning speed).

 

If you want smaller ship, expect to have less guns. Simple.

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