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Broken trading and economy debunk.


Erik9631
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Hello.

 

There have been complaints about why trading feels "broken" and why all the stations are out of stock. A lot of people have been wondering what is going on. I have read through a lot of steam posts and lot of forum posts (Some go back to 7 months). Basically ever since the V11 patch, trading has become almost non profitable.

A lot of people on Reddit have been mentioning that they were unable to make more than 500K per trade, which is very low compared to what we could make before.

 

Before it was possible to make millions using trading. It was a viable method to get enough capital to start your own empire, build your stations and so on.

 

I was personally disappointed with this nerf choice because it rendered trading entirely unprofitable. At this point selling asteroids and mining is a better income.

So I decided to snoop around the code and found the core reason why trading is as broken as it is.

As unfortunate as it sounds, the development team has for some reason decided that we should not make more than 500K per trade run. That is right, you read that correctly. Trading is hard capped so no station ever has more than 500K worth of goods of the same type.

 

That is why there are so many low level resources like water. They sell for 10 credits each and if you have 28K of them, you can make 280K profit tops.

 

When it comes to high level items like drills, anti grav units, weapons, body armor, vechicles, war robots, there are never more of them than their total worth of 500K

 

 

In my opinion this is a poor decision and the nerf is way too huge. I would understand if the cap was at 10 milion, or maybe 5 milion. The spawn rate is RNG based anyway. You still require some amount of luck to find the right items and the right trading routes.

There is a 35% chance to have a station completely out of stock. That still makes it balanced and a viable way to make money assuming you have big enough jump range and the right trading software.

 

But 500K is way too little. It is nothing compared to how much you can make by selling stuff or destroying pirates late game.

 

 

I would appreciate your thoughts on this.

Thanks.

 

I also modified the file and removed the hard cap, so the trading is as it used to be. If anyone is interested in the modification, please let me know. I will upload it to the mods section.

 

 

EDIT:

Since people were asking for the mod, I will release the file. Last update was for 0.15.7

The mod should still work (However I am currently busy and unable to update it) since the combat update does not interfere with the economy in any way as far as I know. You are free to try.

 

Lines I code I modified are 288 to 320, in case you want to look into it yourself. You are looking for a for cycle

for i, v in ipairs(soldGoodsIn) do

 

 

Drop the file to

Avorion\data\scripts\lib

and replace.

TradingFix.zip

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Ohhhhh, so THAT's the reason!

 

I've tried a mission that asked for a bunch of those expensive components. The mission seemed profitable, so I accepted it before it vanished. I looked around for any factories and trade stations and I couldn't gather the 18 needed. Just... Couldn't find enough in the time limit.

 

Until out-of-sector stuff gets done and goods are all produced instead of spawned, let players have their fun! Please, no hard caps like that one.

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Hello.

 

There have been complaints about why trading feels "broken" and why all the stations are out of stock. A lot of people have been wondering what is going on. I have read through a lot of steam posts and lot of forum posts (Some go back to 7 months). Basically ever since the V11 patch, trading has become almost non profitable.

A lot of people on Reddit have been mentioning that they were unable to make more than 500K per trade, which is very low compared to what we could make before.

 

Before it was possible to make millions using trading. It was a viable method to get enough capital to start your own empire, build your stations and so on.

 

I was personally disappointed with this nerf choice because it rendered trading entirely unprofitable. At this point selling asteroids and mining is a better income.

So I decided to snoop around the code and found the core reason why trading is as broken as it is.

As unfortunate as it sounds, the development team has for some reason decided that we should not make more than 500K per trade run. That is right, you read that correctly. Trading is hard capped so no station ever has more than 500K worth of goods of the same type.

 

That is why there are so many low level resources like water. They sell for 10 credits each and if you have 28K of them, you can make 280K profit tops.

 

When it comes to high level items like drills, anti grav units, weapons, body armor, vechicles, war robots, there are never more of them than their total worth of 500K

 

 

In my opinion this is a poor decision and the nerf is way too huge. I would understand if the cap was at 10 milion, or maybe 5 milion. The spawn rate is RNG based anyway. You still require some amount of luck to find the right items and the right trading routes.

There is a 35% chance to have a station completely out of stock. That still makes it balanced and a viable way to make money assuming you have big enough jump range and the right trading software.

 

But 500K is way too little. It is nothing compared to how much you can make by selling stuff or destroying pirates late game.

 

 

I would appreciate your thoughts on this.

Thanks.

 

I also modified the file and removed the hard cap, so the trading is as it used to be. If anyone is interested in the modification, please let me know. I will upload it to the mods section.

 

Well duh. Trade are safest way to gain money.

 

If you want hard profit are pirate hunt. Or killing station. Makr sure kill the expensive ones.

 

Dont forget to brand. Or leave and get in sector. To hit station like pinata. It wont asset as stolen goods.

 

100 mil in my pocket.

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Well that is certainly interesting, if that's actually a thing.

 

If it is, I think this should scale with the distance from the center like almost every element of avorion does. Being on the outter rims of the galaxy doesn't cost nearly as much as it does being near the center. If it scales, this would mean that trading between AI doesn't become obsolete.

 

This could also just be a means of telling you to start building your own factories though instead of relying on Ai stations for trading. Not going to be a cap on those.

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  • 2 weeks later...

The fact that there seems to be nothing available for sale anywhere drives people away from this game. It's one thing if extreme scarcity is in service to a real, living economy, but apparently it isn't—if a hard cap in some .xml file determines what spawns where, rather than actual economic factors such as availability of resources, then it's just annoying.

 

When you're starting out, chances are you'll have to look around for hours just to get a complete rack of titanium mining turrets. It's nuts. At the very least, equipment docks should have much larger and more comprehensive selections.

 

Being an old X veteran, I soldiered on through anyway. I accumulated a few credits during my first playthrough:

 

4a8c0d0fc3.png

 

That was just my first billion. Indeed, I earned so many credits that I broke the game. I wonder if they've fixed the 32-bit integer restriction?

 

Most likely, posts and comments like mine were the reason trading was nerfed, but it really shouldn't have been. OP, if you could upload that mod, that'd be great.

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hi, still active ?

 

to get 1 billion guide :

 

1. have trading post with big cargo.

2. let NPC sell their item to trading post.

3. take all cargo from trading post.

4. sell it to other trading post faction.

5. you will got PURE profit. no deficit at all

6. do it before patched.

 

beware when transporting dangerous item tho.

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hi, still active ?

 

to get 1 billion guide :

 

1. have trading post with big cargo.

2. let NPC sell their item to trading post.

3. take all cargo from trading post.

4. sell it to other trading post faction.

5. you will got PURE profit. no deficit at all

6. do it before patched.

 

beware when transporting dangerous item tho.

 

 

Good luck getting the first 25 million. With cargo haulers broken out of this world, good luck getting any items to your trade station.

 

Also an exploit IS NOT a valid excuse of how broken the current economy is.

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hi, still active ?

 

to get 1 billion guide :

 

1. have trading post with big cargo.

2. let NPC sell their item to trading post.

3. take all cargo from trading post.

4. sell it to other trading post faction.

5. you will got PURE profit. no deficit at all

6. do it before patched.

 

beware when transporting dangerous item tho.

 

 

Good luck getting the first 25 million. With cargo haulers broken out of this world, good luck getting any items to your trade station.

 

Also an exploit IS NOT a valid excuse of how broken the current economy is.

 

Getting 25 mil are easy, if you kill enemy faction station.

 

Go to weak sector and wage war.

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There's more to it than just "getting credits." The game mechanics should work properly and satisfactorily, holistically (that is, altogether, taken as entire system), without Band-Aids like getting free stuff from wonky player-owned trading stations.

 

This is tangential, but I've noticed that very little has changed about turrets. Random turrets are horrible, weak, and wildly varied in range, material, and type. They're almost impossible to find for sale at equipment docks in any quantity, even whites which are close to useless; but if you embark on a many-hours-long scavenger hunt for the materials needed to build turrets in factories, when you finally succeed the game becomes a joke and you can vaporize any and all enemies with your super-overpowered "crafted" turrets.

 

That needs to change immediately. It should have been changed a year ago. Not only do players have boost, which allows them to always choose their battles, always have the initiative, and always have an escape route, but entire fleets of NPC ships can't match a handful of turret factory turrets, either.

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but entire fleets of NPC ships can't match a handful of turret factory turrets, either.
This concerns me. I haven't been playing well enough yet to get to this stage, but I have been meaning to, over time. That the result would be that I suddenly curvestomp the entire game worries me a little bit. Already I can just "sit there" with my mothership and eat bullets all day because of my massive shield and hull capacities while my fighters pick off targets, but at least it takes a while to whittle down the enemy swarms.

 

If players are able to craft deadly turrets, I feel it's at least a little fair if the enemy AI can, too, especially at later stages of the game (i.e. closer to the core). If not exactly as capable as player turrets (since enemies come in swarms and you, the player, may very well stand alone), at least they should approach some % of viability to the overpowered turrets a player can build, as you put it.

 

----

 

Thank you, OP, for bringing this fact to light: now I more properly understand why it's so damn hard to fulfill the "organize X goods of type Y within 30 minutes" missions. I must have tried fifteen of them and only ever succeeded one, just barely. I never seem to be able to find the resources they're looking for, even at the other end of the galaxy (wormhole travel). I guess that's sort of the point of these missions, but you'd expect to find something at least. And yeah, very very occasionally, you find a couple of the items they're looking for, but not nearly enough. And I'm guessing the 500K cap is why.

 

As an anecdotal aside, my most recent attempt at this mission was a complete joke which felt like the game had a sense of sarcastic humour: just one minute after I failed the mission to collect 30 antigrav units, I ran into a pirate swarm which dropped, I kid you not, 59 antigrav units upon blowing up. Wtf. xD

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I've been playing the game for maybe 20ish hours since returning, and I can pull 5-15m+ credits worth of minerals from deep scan station wrecks in a matter of minutes, or (now that I have factory lasers) I can clear out a pirate sector, lase down the shipyard's shields, and salvage it while it's still "alive," getting 20k+ minerals per glowing block destroyed (and toggling a few lasers back on whenever the shields regenerate a little bit).

 

That's ~150-300k credits per block, depending on the material (this is pre-Ogonite/Avorion), and they take moments to destroy.

 

Before that, you can start claiming and selling asteroids for first ~100k, then up to around ~500k each at the barrier to the core. This takes far less effort and preparation and logistical planning than trading.

 

So basically, trading—the staple of space trading and combat games—isn't viable at all anymore. In my view, it should be completely uncapped and the economy balanced and tweaked properly. As it is, the economy is literally just a scavenger hunt for some starting turret parts until you've saved up enough credits to build your own factories and produce your own turrets.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Because of that damn limit, I have reached a point in the industry I'm building where joining PC/NPC seller and NPC buyer stations is not advisable.

Remember (link) the Power Units I'm making ? I can arrange for the production of Electro Magnets, with which would be made Gauss Rails, to supply both an Anti-Grav Generator Factory and an Accelerator Factory.

 

Except it would help neither of my buyer stations. They are stuck, with piles of all required goods in the hangars (the Accelerator has at least 15000 of all !), not producing because the whatever Anti-Gravs and the 14 Accelerators they have produced are worth more than 500k !

So I can neither buy them at an advantageous price, nor sell NPC traders products to supply them as they do not request any supply, making the Electro Magnet and Gauss Rail factories useless !

 

In other words, stations that have space for a lot more than 500k of buyable stock are to be considered dead and ignored by further market analysis :'(.

 

I also cannot see, since they did not request any supply, if they even are supplied correctly of other materials. I bet they don't. If I made one or the other (huge investments, especially the Accelerator Factory) to alleviate the problem, I would almost certainly make non-viable stations !

So that'll stifle a lot of the trading I'll make... Until I make enough money or idle enough to pile it, I'll be stuck at the Power Unit stage in the industry economic sector :(.

 

I really hope for a complete uncapping - people who make money with exploits (like the trading post one) are unstoppable right now, while people who try to not exploit the game are disavantaged >:(. Replacing the cap on buyable materials by a cap on starting materials (so they do not begin with much more than 500k of buyable materials they made, but can request and get supply from the preexisting economy, instead of freezing) would be a good alternative.

 

Please Koonschi - I know it's Combat Update, but a lot of people would wait and extra day for a trading cap hotfix.

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Like i have suggested, we need commdies have real impact both on player and the factions. End products such as jewelry/Body Armor/Accelerators etc. should make a real difference in faction strength. They should become modifiers to the current faction values, enabling stronger ships, more factory spawning, more ship spawning and better influence areas. Bugs like trading haulers must be fixed and the AI improved so the galaxy economy is constantly moving. It also eliminates massive buyouts or sellouts from the player because a moving economy will enable players to make decent money in millions but not enough to break the game, they have that option from building their own empire.

 

A working economy also enables drastic increase in game difficulty since players can then afford to repair or replenish their fleets once a major battle took place. Currently this is outright impossible since most ships cost hundreds if not millions of materials and fleet costs billions while need millions just for the crew. A working economy that allows steady passive income while allowing player to expand or strategise via trade block would give player lots of options to take over other factions.

 

Factions themselves should have a huge variety in difficulties with scaling towards the center. Some faction dreadnaughts and carriers should be harder than the final boss and a boss fight on their own, because taking over the galaxy is essentially the end game. This can be supported/sabotaged depending on how healthy their economies are running, giving piracy a massive boost in strategy value so players aren't just doing it for the money. On the other-hand, a strong faction with good economy should have couple dreadnaughts patroling the system so you have to bring your own fleet for raiding. Resources such as ore fields and wreckage must be capable of re-spawning to support endgame fleet battles, because your cost alone with 10vs10 fights will go up to millions of ores especially if you lost some ships.

 

This dynamic economy of constant production-supply-sink chain will enable alot of strategy just by existing, so it is imperative that the dev can implant something like this.

 

 

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This is an area where some developer communication would be deeply appreciated. Just some assurance that they have some directions/roadmap regarding the mountain of work that is the economy/faction -aspect of the game. Right now there seems to be very little published planning on these issues: https://avorion.gamepedia.com/Roadmap

 

Current economy/faction -system seems like a good start to me though, and it seems a rather solid foundation to build a more complex and dynamic system on. This thread contains tons of good ideas too, great community!

 

This message was prompted by the fact that it bugs me that I can build a variety of awesome-looking custom-built stations, but running them profitably (without exploits) becomes a pain in the a$$  ;D

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but entire fleets of NPC ships can't match a handful of turret factory turrets, either.
This concerns me. I haven't been playing well enough yet to get to this stage, but I have been meaning to, over time.

In recent game that's what my early game was all about. I left naonite space (green ore) with 4 custom crafted turrets totaling 4000 omicron firepower. They easily obliterate fleets of xanion made ships. After mining some more xanion, the whole issue of credits becomes more relevant and i come to topics like this, in order to learn more about trading.

 

Now my salvage operations are made with my own capital ship, with auto-aiming custom crafted salvage lasers. They do quick work of the wreckages and drop maximum amount of sellable stuff. It is far faster than telling other fleet captain to salvage with fighters. Now, i'm not even getting into what ore resources would sell cause i'm hoarding them all to 1 million first for ship building. But the whenever i go sell all the equipment, i'm getting anything from 5 to 15 million credits.

 

Trading is so different. In very early game i had to trade a little bit to get going, but profit is poor. Now with legendary trading module i can see stuff from 10+ jumps away, and the results are poor.

1) Trading module doesn't remember how many items the target and source stations have and can take in. So sometimes i buy too many and have hard time finding buyer for leftovers.

2) When i do trade something, that trade route diminishes to non-profitable quickly. Either station gets full and doesn't consume them, or both seller and buyer equalize their pricing.

3) My ship is not too big yet i guess, less than 200 crew. How big ship do i need to make for serious trading, how much cargo? And then after all that, is it really worth more than the combat?

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but entire fleets of NPC ships can't match a handful of turret factory turrets, either.
This concerns me. I haven't been playing well enough yet to get to this stage, but I have been meaning to, over time.

In recent game that's what my early game was all about. I left naonite space (green ore) with 4 custom crafted turrets totaling 4000 omicron firepower. They easily obliterate fleets of xanion made ships. After mining some more xanion, the whole issue of credits becomes more relevant and i come to topics like this, in order to learn more about trading.

 

Now my salvage operations are made with my own capital ship, with auto-aiming custom crafted salvage lasers. They do quick work of the wreckages and drop maximum amount of sellable stuff. It is far faster than telling other fleet captain to salvage with fighters. Now, i'm not even getting into what ore resources would sell cause i'm hoarding them all to 1 million first for ship building. But the whenever i go sell all the equipment, i'm getting anything from 5 to 15 million credits.

 

Trading is so different. In very early game i had to trade a little bit to get going, but profit is poor. Now with legendary trading module i can see stuff from 10+ jumps away, and the results are poor.

1) Trading module doesn't remember how many items the target and source stations have and can take in. So sometimes i buy too many and have hard time finding buyer for leftovers.

2) When i do trade something, that trade route diminishes to non-profitable quickly. Either station gets full and doesn't consume them, or both seller and buyer equalize their pricing.

3) My ship is not too big yet i guess, less than 200 crew. How big ship do i need to make for serious trading, how much cargo? And then after all that, is it really worth more than the combat?

less than 200 crew ? that was too small.

 

i have around 20 k crew who want million of credits per hour. (for fighting ad trading alike. so my ship are flexible). who can jump 100 sector away with ease.i can jump to buy anything for my endless cargo space.

 

but really trading are boring thing to do. find smuggler, and raid a lot of (enemy) stations.

 

then you can create your own trading post.

 

note : trading post will never "eat" their goods. so when its full, its full for real.

 

note 2 : except for military outpost, habitat, casino, scrapyard, etc. only trading post who cannot eat their goods.

 

note 3 : trading post is broken, as soon NPC trade your trading post, you can take them back to your ship (by transfer cargo), letting you to get 100 % pure money from goods. that was INSANE and broken. can can get 140 % if you sell to needy station.

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note 3 : trading post is broken, as soon NPC trade your trading post, you can take them back to your ship (by transfer cargo), letting you to get 100 % pure money from goods. that was INSANE and broken. can can get 140 % if you sell to needy station.

Correct me if i'm wrong, but trade ships sell trade goods to your trading post. Meaning you buy from them, with possibly ratio you have set in the station config. (They don't just plain donate stuff to you.) It was something like low prices encourage buyers to come, and high prices for sellers. So if you want to make profit you set prices low, and then the trade selling ships might avoid you?

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1) Trading module doesn't remember how many items the target and source stations have and can take in. So sometimes i buy too many and have hard time finding buyer for leftovers.
This is a feature I would definitely like to see added to the Trading Modules. I, too, have had a hard time in the past remembering just how many space Station X had while shopping for wares at Station Y. Especially if you're planning on doing one round-trip to buy all the goods, and then drop them all off, remembering just how much of each you needed is a little hard, and a bit silly of a task that could be made trivial with something as simple as a Trading Module remembering how much space the Station you wanted to trade with had for the goods you're trying to sell to it.

 

 

2) When i do trade something, that trade route diminishes to non-profitable quickly. Either station gets full and doesn't consume them, or both seller and buyer equalize their pricing.
Yes, but I believe this is healthy game design. After all, that's more of a question of supply/demand. When demand is high but supply is low, the price skyrockets. Conversely, when demand is low and supply is high, the price for selling those goods to that Station plummet, because the Station is already satisfied with the stock it currently has. It doesn't need more of what you're trying to push onto it, so it's "reluctant" to accept more, which is reflected in the price. This is how economy works in the real world, too, and if you stop and think about it, it makes intuitive sense. I don't think this part of the trading system should change.

 

My tip for you, however, is that if you find a Station that has a high demand for goods and low stock in those goods, you go out and buy as much of those goods as you can find (and the accepting Station will have space for), and sell those goods to that Station in one go. You see, at the time of importing the goods, they will have a +35% rate or whatever, which you can capitalise on if you sell them the desired goods in bulk. In other words, 1000 goods sold once at +35% will give you more money because of better rates than 10 trips selling 100 goods, since only the first trip will be at the high demand +35% rate, while following trips will see you make diminishing returns on that transaction, seeing as the Station's need for those goods is being saturated.

 

3) My ship is not too big yet i guess, less than 200 crew. How big ship do i need to make for serious trading, how much cargo? And then after all that, is it really worth more than the combat?
The answer to this question is it depends. I personally run a beast of a capital ship with 672 crew, but that's also mostly because I have many, many guns, many shield generation and many hull. :P

 

Seriously though, I do also sport a healthy 3,500 cargo space volume, which I can stretch to around 4,700 using System Module Upgrades. This is an enormous help, because I can basically pick up however much of whatever I want to, and always have enough space to spare.

 

To more directly answer your question, the higher price/unit sold of goods you want to be trading, the more cargo space / unit you will need, in general. For example, Mining and War Robots, which sell for around 130,000 Credits a piece on the market, need a lot more space / unit because their volume / unit is higher. At the same time though, selling only 5 of them will net you a bunch more cash than selling 500 Aluminium, as per example.

 

Trading is definitely more profitable than combat, if you can find the right deal. Especially if you're not taken aback to commit a little piracy every now and then, since raiding and unbranding stolen goods will still give you 50% of their price sold "for free" - after all, the only thing you invested to attain those goods was time spent destroying and raiding a Cargo Hauler and/or Station. Especially raiding Mining Asteroids is worth a lot of money, since they will almost always have those precious Mining Robots I mentioned in stock and in bulk at that. Quick unbranding run and sale later, and you're still making 75k money a piece. With 4,700 cargo space, that means you can make millions in one run.

 

The more legitimate approach is to have a Sector of your own and/or build Stations in other people's Sectors, which will passively create goods for you that you can either do shopping runs for yourself, or have Traders come in and sell to them, for you. This can give you a pretty decent passive income. I've got a couple of Asteroid Mines running myself, with the highest profit being made by a Gold/Platinum and a Silicium Mine, both of which sell in instances of 200-240k Credits per sale, about every 10 to 15 minutes. But I'm not sure yet: that may just be because my neighbouring Faction likes those products specifically, and doesn't care much for the Oil or Ore I'm producing too; maybe your Sector would be different. Haven't tested that out yet, myself.

 

----

 

One more final attempt to answer your question: 200 crew ship sounds plenty if all you're focusing on is cargo space. If you're also sporting guns and shields, you'll need a little more to support all of that. I had a good time when my mothership was at 350 crew size, so I guess you could use that as an estimate.

 

But see for yourself: everyone's playstyle and experience in this game is different. ;)

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There's more to it than just "getting credits." The game mechanics should work properly and satisfactorily, holistically (that is, altogether, taken as entire system), without Band-Aids like getting free stuff from wonky player-owned trading stations.

 

This is tangential, but I've noticed that very little has changed about turrets. Random turrets are horrible, weak, and wildly varied in range, material, and type. They're almost impossible to find for sale at equipment docks in any quantity, even whites which are close to useless; but if you embark on a many-hours-long scavenger hunt for the materials needed to build turrets in factories, when you finally succeed the game becomes a joke and you can vaporize any and all enemies with your super-overpowered "crafted" turrets.

 

That needs to change immediately. It should have been changed a year ago. Not only do players have boost, which allows them to always choose their battles, always have the initiative, and always have an escape route, but entire fleets of NPC ships can't match a handful of turret factory turrets, either.

 

The biggest issue I personally find with turrets, or their damage altogether is how beefy stations are. The whole end game is supposed to be about eliminating enemy factions and burning down their stations.

 

The deal breaker is that I made myself a ship with over 100K omicrons. There was not a ship I could not one hit kill (With all-laser turret build).

When it comes to stations, it still takes well over a minute to fully destroy one with 10M hull 10M shields.

At this point, killing enemy ships is boring, because you vaporize them with your lasers in less than a second. But since enemy stations have so much health, you are literally forced to make these weapons.

 

What I am trying to point out is the massive balance issues considering station health and enemy ship health. I sometimes feel like the core system stations are not even meant to be destroyed.

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Anti-station torpedoes. Too big, dumb, slow, and easily shot down by enemy ships but can deal massive damage to a big target like a station.

 

Boarding: take control of the station once you've disabled its shields. Could have a high cost involved (hey, boarding parties are expensive!).

 

I found a turret factory that made laser turrets with 15,000 DPS. That is so broken, especially if I turned them into 120x 4,500 DPS fighters.

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