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koonschi replied to are gun problem But most of us missed it. And my reply.


LordMaddog
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So I've been watching this thread for a while now and I'm starting to feel that a statement from my side on this whole thing would be beneficial.

 

Right now, I do not have plans to make fully customizable weapons, in terms of stats.

 

There are very simple reasons for this, and it's not because of doability or performance:

1. It would make the entire current looting system obsolete. This loot system is a very important aspect of Avorion that makes it fun, you can always find a better weapon.

2. It would be hell to balance, we're already running into issues where players say the game is too easy because the AI ships can't beat them, even on the highest difficulty. Players build their own ships, meaning that the difficulty is basically set by yourself and your ship. But that's a completely different point and I won't get into this any more here now.

 

So when I say I don't want you to be able to completely, freely choose your weapons stats, I'm not doing this because I want to annoy you, but because I think that it leaves more balancing control in my hands and it will be healthier for the game in the long term.

 

That being said, there are plans to make weapons (and fighters) more customizable. I'm planning:

- Custom models for weapons (and fighters on that matter)

- Custom models for turrets

- Better scaling for turret sizes (the current turrets-not-scaling-issue is actually a bug, but I want to address it at the right time so I don't have to change it twice)

- Turret templates so you can copy turrets you've built or looted

 

I hope this clears some things up.

 

Ok I fully understand that but can we at least have some thing like this

 

1 Make all turrets need power and make engines have there own limited after burner pool(not reliant on battery).

2 Make all turrets scale able increasing or decreasing there DPS and power draw.

3 Make all turrets independent targeting once they are past a certain scale

4 Make turning and aiming speed relative to turret size; the larger they are the slower they are. Thus making them effective against larger slower targets and quite ineffective against fast agile ones.

 

There should also be no arbitrary limit placed on them other than the need of gunners and energy. If this was done it would also be nice to see the plus more turrets module completely removed from the game along with the plus energy generated modules or they will be all the player will ever use.Maybe replace them with Accuracy/ range modifiers and energy efficiency.

 

This will make balancing easier in the long run as well as making all ship sizes more viable and the game funner as a whole because while we would still enjoy new loot as you say; we would also still have some say in the matter. If you dint know the hate for the RNG god is real and this would help elevate some of it giving the best of both worlds.

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Ok I fully understand that but can we at least have some thing like this

 

1 Make all turrets need power and make engines have there own limited after burner pool(not reliant on battery).

2 Make all turrets scale able increasing or decreasing there DPS and power draw.

3 Make all turrets independent targeting once they are past a certain scale

4 Make turning and aiming speed relative to turret size; the larger they are the slower they are. Thus making them effective against larger slower targets and quite ineffective against fast agile ones.

 

There should also be no arbitrary limit placed on them other than the need of gunners and energy. If this was done it would also be nice to see the plus more turrets module completely removed from the game along with the plus energy generated modules or they will be all the player will ever use.Maybe replace them with Accuracy/ range modifiers and energy efficiency.

 

This will make balancing easier in the long run as well as making all ship sizes more viable and the game funner as a whole because while we would still enjoy new loot as you say; we would also still have some say in the matter. If you dint know the hate for the RNG god is real and this would help elevate some of it giving the best of both worlds.

 

1) I like this

2) I would add that bigger scale also needs more operators... (more operators, larger footprint and logarithmic power requirement = more DPS/Range)

3) OMG YES... If we have to Hire (and pay) crew members to operate the turrets, once the turret has X crew to operate it... it makes SENSE that they can pick their own targets ---- I would add that it would be WONDERFUL if, -as commander- I can set "Autonomous with priority targeting". If I target something the turret will prioritize it, otherwise it does it's own targeting.

4) Wow... intuitive and balancing... I LIKE

 

5) OMG Yes... switching to Accuracy/range/Efficiency/DPS modules!!!!!  If I want to make a ship that has 500 turrets on it (for entertainment purposes) I can't.  Switching to Power/Crew as limitation factors allows me to do that and then either use them or not.

 

Imagine a ship with 50 turrets... That all guzzle energy to fire... Massive Alpha strike, but depletes the battery, now vulnerable and can't warp away ...

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On number two I was thinking that bigger turrets should also take up more turret slots.  This will prevent people from making ships with like 30 huge turrets if all their ship is is power generation and guns.

 

No the turret module and limit have to go they damage the game. Instead the balance would be better to make scaled have a 4:1 energy requirement to dps ratio so most players will opt to have 3 or 4 medium large turrets.

 

As for huge ships that are all power generation and guns it just wont happen unless its a station. As your ship gets bigger you will need more thrusters, gyros, dampeners, and engiens all of witch are power drains. The bigger the ship the more you need unless its nothing but a floating block that cant move and in this case it be a weapon platform designed pacifically for defense witch is some thing that would be nice to see in the game!!

 

Also to make balancing easier it be nice to see this happen for energy Generators

Generators  be renamed reactors and cost ten times as much credits to be placed. An energy management system like in the old X-wing game  implanted so the player can control how this new sparse resource is distributed.

Unstable and stable modes:

When a reactor is placed it is automatically set to unstable which means it generates the normal amount of energy. However the player is able to turn reactors to stable mode which means that the generator will put out ten times as much energy. In this mode though the ship the reactor is attached on will not be allowed to travel faster than 100 m/s and cannot perform hyperspace jumps effectively making it into a station or a defensive weapon platform.

Switching a reactors mode takes time according to the mass of the reactor if you have a massive reactor it can take up to twenty minutes for it to fully switch, during which time it produces verey litle energy and is vulnerable to attack.

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Maddog, the one problem I have with completely removing the turret hard limit and instead putting in place a generator soft limit is that it further pushes the idea that bigger is always better. I don't know if it's just me,  but as my ships get bigger the percentage of free energy I have in relation to energy generation sky rockets. In the Titanium tier, I'm only hovering around 3 GW free from 7 GW generated, but then as I get to Trinium and expand my ship I'm at 20 GW free to 30 GW generated. If you make the cost of turrets in the realm of gigawatts, smaller ships can only have 3 or 4 turrets firing at once and yet are still really weak and have less utility slots for upgrades. The mid tier ships could have 10 to 15 turrets, and still have 7 tech slots to customize their ship with.

 

It just seems like if you switch to purely energy based turrets, small ships will be massively outclassed in fire power. Even a 3 system ship can have 7 turrets and a shield module and cargo module, but making it energy only severely reduces that.

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Maddog, the one problem I have with completely removing the turret hard limit and instead putting in place a generator soft limit is that it further pushes the idea that bigger is always better. I don't know if it's just me,  but as my ships get bigger the percentage of free energy I have in relation to energy generation sky rockets. In the Titanium tier, I'm only hovering around 3 GW free from 7 GW generated, but then as I get to Trinium and expand my ship I'm at 20 GW free to 30 GW generated. If you make the cost of turrets in the realm of gigawatts, smaller ships can only have 3 or 4 turrets firing at once and yet are still really weak and have less utility slots for upgrades. The mid tier ships could have 10 to 15 turrets, and still have 7 tech slots to customize their ship with.

 

It just seems like if you switch to purely energy based turrets, small ships will be massively outclassed in fire power. Even a 3 system ship can have 7 turrets and a shield module and cargo module, but making it energy only severely reduces that.

...but it currently does let you get more turrets as size increases right now.  ??? The bigger the ship, the more system slots, the more system slots the more potential turret slots you have.

 

If we want to work on damage potential vs size, we may want to introduce a "turret control block" that gives you slots based on its volume, but only compared to the mass of the ship. That way a smaller ship will get more slots m3 for m3... but I don't think it's that big of an issue anyway. The bigger issue is the fact there is very little to no advantage in combat to be faster/smaller right now.

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Maddog, the one problem I have with completely removing the turret hard limit and instead putting in place a generator soft limit is that it further pushes the idea that bigger is always better. I don't know if it's just me,  but as my ships get bigger the percentage of free energy I have in relation to energy generation sky rockets. In the Titanium tier, I'm only hovering around 3 GW free from 7 GW generated, but then as I get to Trinium and expand my ship I'm at 20 GW free to 30 GW generated. If you make the cost of turrets in the realm of gigawatts, smaller ships can only have 3 or 4 turrets firing at once and yet are still really weak and have less utility slots for upgrades. The mid tier ships could have 10 to 15 turrets, and still have 7 tech slots to customize their ship with.

 

It just seems like if you switch to purely energy based turrets, small ships will be massively outclassed in fire power. Even a 3 system ship can have 7 turrets and a shield module and cargo module, but making it energy only severely reduces that.

 

I wont deny that this was originally part of a larger more game encompassing balance plan. To make this completely balanced the plain was to change how resources  and resource gathering worked.

 

 

 

8 Resources:

I don’t think resources should be so dramatically different and I’d like them all to have their own part to play.

I would suggest something like this.

Iron is heavy, cannot have a reactor, and its armor is only medium however because of its cheapness and availability its use in kinetic weapons is good.

 

Armor    mass      energy generation  energy weapons    explosives    kinetic

3            4                  0                            1                    2              4

Titanium is light and all-around balanced in almost every aspect and because it’s slightly more availability it is to go to resource.

Armor    mass      energy generation  energy weapons    explosives    kinetic

2          2                2                            2                    2              2

Naonite just goes well with all things energy though its armor is poor and kinetic capabilities nonexistent

Armor    mass      energy generation  energy weapons    explosives    kinetic

1          2                4                            5                    1              0

Trinium lightweight and durable and relatively balanced.

Armor    mass      energy generation  energy weapons    explosives    kinetic

3            1                3                            3                    2              2

Xanion medium weight good durability but it’s innate properties aren’t the best for energy generation.

Armor    mass      energy generation  energy weapons    explosives    kinetic

4          3                  1                            1                    3              3

 

Ogonite heavy solid and packs a punch but can’t generate energy at all.

Armor    mass      energy generation  energy weapons    explosives    kinetic

5          4                  0                            0                    3              5

Avorion  this amazing new mysterious material is quite volatile and excellent for generating energy however it’s explosive nature means that no one in their right mind would use it for armor or energy weapons in fear that it might explode.

Armor    mass      energy generation  energy weapons    explosives    kinetic

0          3                  5                            0                    5              0

 

These stats are of course completely my own arbitrary idea and most likely do not line up at the devs in the least bit. But something along these lines would be nice to see.

 

 

9 Resource gathering:

I’d like to see specific resource asteroids become extremely rare but once found give thousands of materials however also usually having some sort of Guardian.

And instead have normal asteroids become the default resource node. As you mine an asteroid it is possible to obtain any material all the way up to Ogonite but mostly you’ll just get iron with a chance of obtaining other resources slightly increasing as you get closer to the core.

 

 

 

With this intact the ideal was that smaller ships as you lvl l might be able to scrounge together a small reactor made out of Avorion from killing aliens while lager ships would have to rely on more plentiful stuff like titanium.

 

But even with this small ships would still not be able to any were near match a bigger ships dps and honestly I believe that is should be that way.

 

Now in full on war small ships would have there place if torpedoes were added to the game witch I have brought up in multiple other post so I wont push that here right now. 

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Maddog, the one problem I have with completely removing the turret hard limit and instead putting in place a generator soft limit is that it further pushes the idea that bigger is always better.

 

I kinda missed this point in my last reply  sorry

 

Well in truth it is always going to be true, because to a cretin point it is true.  But I also believe this meta is to prevalent ATM and this was my suggestion for that

 

 

1: Crew

The idea that I can pull up to a random space station and hire 40 to 80 men that don’t even know me and have them walk onto my ship is just insane to me.

I’d rather have it so you start out with just ,you a pilot, and have to gain fame or infamy to hire on new crew.

Infamy: is gained by the act of nefarious deeds like stealing cargo attacking random ships and all-around devious acts of privateering.

As your infamy grows pirates and smugglers will be willing to join your crew however these deviants of society will want their share of the loot. 25% of all profit and every now and then they will take a random module or turret for their own.

Fame: is gained by fending off pirates and aliens, running missions, trading cargo, and various other deeds accepted by society.

But having fame alone is not enough to have normal people want to join your crew you also have to be in good faction standing with the trade post or station you are trying to recruit from.

* Once an NPC contacts you and tells you he wishes to join your crew the player is able to assign him to any vessel he or she wishes regardless of the location of said vessel. If the vessel they are signed to is destroyed they will die or not die according to the settings and difficulties set on the server.

Each level of NPC’s is harder to recruit with pilots being the easiest. However pilots are equal to one miner one gunner one mechanic and one engineer but you can only have three active pilots on any vessel at any given time.

This set up dramatically changes the flow of the entire game.

With the system in place the player will start out with a very light fighter on the 0.05 scale work his way up to a heavy fighter; three pilots. Then form a squadron of maybe three or four fighters. (Player controlled AI will have to be dramatically improved which is planned anyway.)

At which point they should be able to recruit a few engineers and mechanics enabling them to make a light cruiser or cargo ship so they can make trade runs or pirate raids.

Eventually they’ll be able to hire a few sergeants so they can have a much larger ship and so on and so forth unto their fame grows and they become a force to be reckoned with inside the galaxy.

With this change normal AI ships would also be much smaller than they are now allowing for there to be full on dogfights.-Once again AI needs some improvement in this aspect-In truth there should be very few large ships flying around and coming up against one should be a full on challenge.

 

 

I know placing this here might seem out of place (thus the spolier) but when making a game you have to see every part effecting the whole.

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There should also be no arbitrary limit placed on them other than the need of gunners and energy.

 

On a multiplayer game you CAN'T let a single player control the ULTIMATE DeathStar...

 

...Or you will be encouraging stablished player harrassment of new ones.

 

Peak firepower needs to be ALWAYS on the side that has more players in it, and, if possible, the side that has combat initiative (Basically the side that can choose to flee).

 

ATM, with maneuverability and number of turrets favoring small multiple ships, this is balanced... As a single player piloting a big powerfull ship can certainly bully a single player in a smaller one IF the smaller one can't flee... Meanwhile, if the same player tries to use his DeathStar to wipeout a sector containing the stations of a small group of players... They can band together in smaller ships that field more turrets, are harder to hit and, more important, require a fraction of the resources of the Deathstar... Thus giving a chance to survive for new players arriving to "hostile" servers.

 

This game is trying to perform the stunt of bringing creative, trade, exploration, combat and pvp players ALL together to the same product... To manage this, "status quo" like this one needs to be enforced.

 

On the other side, if you want to increase the number of turrets on a custom server... You don't have to mess with complex balance... Just increase the ammount of turrets each control system provides and voilá, you can make your own Imperial Class Star Destroyer ;).

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Tracking speed on bigger turrets should be lowered by a lot yes, but travel projectile time maybe too. The bigger you shoot your bullets the slower they become, preventing them to fry fighters while waiting for them to pass in front.

 

Anyway i'm pretty please with what Koonschi said and i fully agree with his vision of the game on this point, it will be better to not let people totally custom their weapons so that it will prevent exploits issues, specially in a game with multiplayer.

 

Still i hope at some point we will have some kind of fixed weapons to put in the nose of your ship and go with the bigger turrets *.*

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There should also be no arbitrary limit placed on them other than the need of gunners and energy.

 

On a multiplayer game you CAN'T let a single player control the ULTIMATE DeathStar...

 

...Or you will be encouraging stablished player harrassment of new ones.

 

Peak firepower needs to be ALWAYS on the side that has more players in it, and, if possible, the side that has combat initiative (Basically the side that can choose to flee).

 

ATM, with maneuverability and number of turrets favoring small multiple ships, this is balanced... As a single player piloting a big powerfull ship can certainly bully a single player in a smaller one IF the smaller one can't flee... Meanwhile, if the same player tries to use his DeathStar to wipeout a sector containing the stations of a small group of players... They can band together in smaller ships that field more turrets, are harder to hit and, more important, require a fraction of the resources of the Deathstar... Thus giving a chance to survive for new players arriving to "hostile" servers.

 

This game is trying to perform the stunt of bringing creative, trade, exploration, combat and pvp players ALL together to the same product... To manage this, "status quo" like this one needs to be enforced.

 

On the other side, if you want to increase the number of turrets on a custom server... You don't have to mess with complex balance... Just increase the ammount of turrets each control system provides and voilá, you can make your own Imperial Class Star Destroyer ;).

 

This is were torpedoes would come to play.

I know they are not added yet but they seriously need to be :)

 

You see a ship as powerful as your talking about would need to be massive and there for not very nimble. This would mean small ships could evade it and at the same time launch an endless stream of torpedoes and the behemoth would not be able to doge the slow moving high damage explosives.

 

 

However you do know in the current game a Xanion tire, 9 slot ship can go back to a Naonite area and absolutely destroy every thing without ever having to worry about dying.  And my 600k om 15 slot ship currently could never be even damaged by any thing less then another 15 slot ship.

I am sad to say the dream you have don't exist in any shape or form right now in game. I can kill stations around the core with my current ship with ease and nothing in the sector can stop me EVER. If I so wished I could wipe out every faction down to extinction. 

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Tracking speed on bigger turrets should be lowered by a lot yes, but travel projectile time maybe too. The bigger you shoot your bullets the slower they become, preventing them to fry fighters while waiting for them to pass in front.

 

Agreed I loved dogging the capital ships beam weapons in freespace https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4IGqVNT61VI.

It be nice to see massive weapons work something like that here as well.

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However you do know in the current game a Xanion tire, 9 slot ship can go back to a Naonite area and absolutely destroy every thing without ever having to worry about dying.  And my 600k om 15 slot ship currently could never be even damaged by any thing less then another 15 slot ship.

I am sad to say the dream you have don't exist in any shape or form right now in game. I can kill stations around the core with my current ship with ease and nothing in the sector can stop me EVER. If I so wished I could wipe out every faction down to extinction.

 

And here's where you're wrong.  A ship half the size of a 15 slot ship has 13 slots.  If I and buddy wanted to stop you and we each only had half you resources we'd still end up with almost double your firepower.

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And here's where you're wrong.  A ship half the size of a 15 slot ship has 13 slots.  If I and buddy wanted to stop you and we each only had half you resources we'd still end up with almost double your firepower.

No because you will never have HALF of my resources at that lvl. I have multi millions of Avorion and Xanion while you will have around 500k of each.

 

Also a 14 slot ship has at max around 2 mill shields and 1 mill haul any larger then this and it becomes a 15 slot.

 

My ship has 10Mill shields and 5mill haul and 600k dps a second that means you can take 5 seconds at max of me shooting at you and you are dead!

 

Even if you had a combined 1200k dps (witch there is no way you do) you would both die before my shields fell.

ATM the game is very prominently bigger is better orientated. :(

 

edit: I just realize the Dps I gave is on the extreme end of the spectrum lol. That's just the lvl a few players have obtain to.

Typically a 14 slot ship has around 40k dps  and a 15 slot normal player has 200k dps with comparable shield and haul stats as I stated.

This sill leave the 15 slot ship the winier every time. Even agents  3 or 4 small ships. 

 

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And here's where you're wrong.  A ship half the size of a 15 slot ship has 13 slots.  If I and buddy wanted to stop you and we each only had half you resources we'd still end up with almost double your firepower.

No because you will never have HALF of my resources at that lvl. I have multi millions of Avorion and Xanion while you will have around 500k of each.

 

Also a 14 slot ship has at max around 2 mill shields and 1 mill haul any larger then this and it becomes a 15 slot.

 

My ship has 10Mill shields and 5mill haul and 600k dps a second that means you can take 5 seconds at max of me shooting at you and you are dead!

 

Even if you had a combined 1200k dps (witch there is no way you do) you would both die before my shields fell.

ATM the game is very prominently bigger is better orientated. :(

 

edit: I just realize the Dps I gave is on the extreme end of the spectrum lol. That's just the lvl a few players have obtain to.

Typically a 14 slot ship has around 40k dps  and a 15 slot normal player has 200k dps with comparable shield and haul stats as I stated.

This sill leave the 15 slot ship the winier every time. Even agents  3 or 4 small ships.

 

Rather make numbers up I decided to look at an in game ship.  These four pictures are the same same ship scaled to four different sizes.

 

Meh4_zps9whpstyk.jpg

 

Meh3_zpsohrm7sdg.jpg

 

Meh2_zpskehwylec.jpg

 

Meh1_zpsghob9jqt.jpg

 

Note that the 15 slot ship doesn't even have double the 13 slot version's Hp.  Now, if your 15 slot ship is well over 15 slot mark then you are wasting resources.  If a ship is 0.30 billion m3 volume you could have built two 15 slots ships (0.14 bil) and doubled you potential firepower.

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Derailed thread with a completely worthless argument.

 

Even If I am wrong what I suggested would balance things more then what they are now.

 

Now on to your argument, you seem to think resources are hard to get or something I can obtain 5+ mill avorion an hour AFK!!

 

Just to keep things fair, this is my cargo hauler by no means the sharpest tool in my shed.

Screenshot25.jpg

Screenshot28.jpg

That is its exact stats nothing changed.

 

It is equipped with rails that have a 30% chance of piercing shields And while its says around 200k om after some testing I found out its average damage a shot was 2.3million!! vers shields and vers haul because of the multi pierce bug its 5+ mill.

 

It can shoot 7 TIMES! before cool down 14.8 sec. NO Ship that is not a 15+ slot ship can withstand a full round from its weapons even if you stack the ship full of shield modules the 30% pierce will kill your max 2-3mill haul.

 

DPS dose not matter when you DIE in three secs flat. Thus your argument is null.

 

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So you want power to be the limiting factor for weapons instead of a cap.  But why would a chaingun have even comparable power draw to a laser?

 

Good question and after a lot of though I figured out why.

 

Seeing as we are not required to have some form of ammunition on board to shoot that means the bullets are formed on board the ship on demand this would require a lot of heat or a High powered cutting and shaping tool. And seeing as there is no explosive on board either that means the guns are using some form of magnetic induction to launch said projectiles.

 

Both of thees things would require power. Thus a chaingun needs power :P

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Ammunition sounds a bit more like a mod thing, tbh. If you start with ammunition you would need go over to fuel, life support, etc...etc. I tottaly like a simulation feeling but i think it´s not what the game itself intended to be (a hardcore simulation).

 

Why not just use the ways we got allready to determin the size/useage of turrets. Okay i agree the upgradeslots may not the best solution. But why not use the same like we use it on hyperdrive and more upgrade slots allready? A C&C block. Or more like a Firecontrol block. That block would become part of a ship and increase it´s turret slots. So basicly a firecontrol would be a operator room where all the gunners sitting, controlling and checking whats goin on.

 

But i would also try to limit what kind of guns u use. As example you got a 1000 ton ship and put a 600 ton gun on it, like a big turret. Now you fire it. In that case i would not only give that size of a gun a big recoil but also damage the structure of a ship. If you just scale a gun way to big for your ship you will have to hurt yourself to fire it. I think that combination of a extra block for more turrets and a limiting factor that is calculated out of the size of your ship would be a good way to balance it out so you cannot build a giant glass cannon and smaller ship still got chances against bigger ones. And of course, the bigger, the slower. So it would be:

 

Size = Recoilforce (needs energy/thruster to compensate) + Firingspeed + Extramass

 

I think that way you could still get big guns but not overpowering your ship after all. A smaller ship could still carry more smaller guns/turrets and still use them propably. The Recoil of the big turrets would allready make it very hard to hit small ships with a bigger gun. Count in slower moving rate of a big ship + the out of balance mass that makes it hard for just fly in circles full speed and shooting and actually hit the target.

 

On the other hand, a fixed mounted gun with that special no rotation block could make it easyer to handle a big gun by absorbing more of the recoil and reduce structurel stress but removes the turret capacity =)

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