RTS and Game Balance

[Hûvy]

Ive talked a bit about this on Reddit and i wanted to share my thoughts where as well. I do realize that the game is not finished and that things are due to change, but i just want to throw this thought out there to maybe make sure this doesn't happen in the final version of the game. Unless of course its how the game should be played.

 

So right now the meta is basically get Avorion, Organite and Tirinium and have the biggest ship possible, there's nothing wrong with this but due to how the different resources are spread out i think this would cause game balance issues. When player factions become more fleshed out with how the resources are spread out how it is right now it would create a king of the hill type of game, with the Faction owning the middle basically having a nonstop supply of Avorion to themselves, pumping out more high level ships more than others can. I believe that someone who is basically set up an empire in the iron side should still be able to beat them with clever tactics and organisation rather than who has the biggest guns, ships and shields. Otherwise the guy in the middle might not ever get beaten

 

Early game resources like iron are almost unused completely because you can get a ton of Organite pretty much the same as you would iron. i suggest we make lower resources the most common ones throughout the entire galaxy making high end resources more valuable but less available, this would make lower end resources needed to construct a lot of things and the higher end ones used in more specialized roles or places. I know that you can still find iron and titanium in high level areas but its more rare it in those areas, where i think it should be common all round.

 

*edit the locations on where you find the higher mats would still be the same i.e Avorion is at the core area, just less of it or more low end resources

 

(i am personally sorry if this doesn't make sense or you have trouble reading, im not the best at writing structured paragraphs)

[Ohm is Futile]

I see your point, although I'm not sure how feasible it is to deny access to higher tier materials given the size of the galaxy.

 

The one thing I'm not sure about is how do you scale difficulty if you have all the materials available everywhere? Sure the density for each material is going to be different, but still. Even if you re-arrange how materials behave and in what ratios you need them, how do you difficulty?

[Hûvy]

The one thing I'm not sure about is how do you scale difficulty if you have all the materials available everywhere? Sure the density for each material is going to be different, but still. Even if you re-arrange how materials behave and in what ratios you need them, how do you difficulty?

 

I do think that it would be a lot trickier for the difficulty to make sense, i was thinking of more the line that you can still have the Avorion at the core and the other resources radiating around it as it is now, but in a way where the lower end resources are still the most common anywhere. Like the dude in the middle could still have Avorion, but Avorion would now be a strategic resource rather than the default resource to build ships, players would need to take into consideration what they are going to use it for and not slap it on everything. When i say strategic recourse i mean for like one player it would still be a lot, but for it to be used in ship designs around the faction or specialized ships it would need to be debated heavily how it is used.

 

Weapons are another thing i want to talk about but i think that is for another related discussion

[cy414]

technically high tier mats are already restricted access.

if the spawn logic was changed so that higher tier mats had to share spawn space with lower tier ones it would reduce their availability.

or even distribution probability curve.

[Hûvy]

technically high tier mats are already restricted access.

if the spawn logic was changed so that higher tier mats had to share spawn space with lower tier ones it would reduce their availability.

or even distribution probability curve.

 

I understand that, but i don't want it to be a case of someone owns a source of power that gives him a lot more power relative to everyone else, therefore he stays in his position for ages because he outclasses everyone else

[Namuras]

Tbh i think it will be very hard for a player faction to control EVERY supply of avorion...

 

Edit:

and if they can hold the core, they probably have "won" either way b/c of sheer numbers of players...

[Hûvy]

Tbh i think it will be very hard for a player faction to control EVERY supply of avorion...

 

You could be right, but remember almost everyone is going to want to have avorion and to want to have a lot of it, the factions will be looking for dominance and want a edge over everyone else.

[Namuras]

Tbh i think it will be very hard for a player faction to control EVERY supply of avorion...

 

You could be right, but remember almost everyone is going to want to have avorion and to want to have a lot of it, the factions will be looking for dominance and want a edge over everyone else.

 

Sure, but see my edit...

 

Also the attacker is at an advantage here...

[Hûvy]

 

Sure, but see my edit...

 

Also the attacker is at an advantage here...

 

That would be in a universe that has been active for a whole, i imagine a arms race in news servers for the core and whoever holds it basically does win yea, because of the advantage of the amount of avorion they would get. Im not saying its impossible to beat someone in the center it would be harder for the person wanting to attack them in terms of the amount of effort they will need to put in compared to the avorion rich faction.

 

I also don't imagine a "win" scenario unless someone owns the whole universe on a server

 

How does the attacker have an advantage ?

[SageThe13th]

If one faction takes control of the whole center they win.  It's not even a matter of what materials they have at that point.  Having that many sectors on lock down means they already probably had a massive unbeatable army in the first place.

[Hûvy]

If one faction takes control of the whole center they win.  It's not even a matter of what materials they have at that point.  Having that many sectors on lock down means they already probably had a massive unbeatable army in the first place.

 

But consider how fun that would be to play against, like once that happens there isn't much point in playing any further on the RTS side if they are guaranteed to win from that point on

[DivineEvil]

I already see several problems with the arguments and presentation:

- Its called Ogonite (as russian "ogon" for "fire") and Trinium (as Trinity).

 

- Resources are not infinite, so there's no such thing as "non-stop supply". Asteroids are easily depleted, and high-tier AI attacks take more time and effort to defeat and salvage.

 

- Resources are distributed radially, meaning that each subsequent resource kind is located in less and less number of sectors. There's dozens of times more Iron-only sectors compared to sectors, that has Avorion. Trinium alone can be found in at least twice the number of sectors, than Ogonite and Avorion combined.

 

- Central sectors spawn ALL resources, meaning that central regions has highest degree of diffusion of resources, and thus Avorion is already the rarest material, dissolved in roughly equal amount of other materials for the same volume of asteroids. Even if individual resources are no as common in the Core regions as in their own bands, together they reduce the amount of high-tier resources substantially.

 

- More common resources can be mined and salvaged faster, in larger amounts, bought for dirt-cheap prices and expended with little regret. Iron can sure be 11 times less durable than Avorion, but Iron is 100+ times more accessible and can be used to build enormous mobile fortresses with dozens upon dozens of lowtech weapons, that can be thrown into suicide assaults to allow precise strikes in other sectors.

 

- One faction would not be able to control the entire central region. Even the most stable and active group can succumb to espionage, sabotage raids, piracy and hit-run tactics driven from several hostile factions surrounding them and working together. Without diplomacy there no prosperity.

 

- Outer territories still has some rare materials available due to Operation Exodus wrecks. There's no specific idea how many resources can be obtained from them, but even in a single settlement there's hundreds of thousands (Haati ships are pretty big).

 

- While a faction can control resource deposits and production lines, they cannot control every sector in their territory.

[Namuras]

 

That would be in a universe that has been active for a whole, i imagine a arms race in news servers for the core and whoever holds it basically does win yea, because of the advantage of the amount of avorion they would get. Im not saying its impossible to beat someone in the center it would be harder for the person wanting to attack them in terms of the amount of effort they will need to put in compared to the avorion rich faction.

 

I also don't imagine a "win" scenario unless someone owns the whole universe on a server

 

How does the attacker have an advantage ?

 

The attacker has the advantage that he knows where and when he will strike... unless the hypothetical defenders can defend every entrypoint into the core with superior forces 24/7 they have no chance to keep others out atm.

[SageThe13th]

Avorion is also not an I win button.  If one group were to take over the galactic core they could still possibly lose if the rest of the major player factions ganged up on them.  Throw twice as many Xanion ships at Avorion ones and you are going to win.

[Dead8Eye]

hi! :)

 

i rly dont understand what you all mean? every galaxy is proc. generated. the "difficulty" on each game creates the "rarity" of each material.

 

btw in avorion you have 1million sectors. if the boss on 0:0 destroyed, the war of avorion begins and every ship crew costs money over time.

thats the same. a ultimative ship with 5.000 crewmembers costs over 50mio every hour. an full equipped fleet with

destroyers or/and battlecruisers costs over 200mio/h.

 

the game is perfect balanced actually how X³ Terran Conflict in my eyes

 

 

[Hûvy]

 

Some actual valid statements and arguments

 

 

Thank you for the correction on Ogonite and Trinium

 

I do quite believe that resources are infinite not from asteroids but from AI attacks and recourse traders(the amount you can get from traders is quite low tbh), with a good and organised team of people they could farm to get almost anything. I see salvaging as being better to mining.

 

I haven't been in the center for a huge amount of time, but from my time in there i found quite a bit of Avorion but if it really isn't that plentiful as i think then ill concede on that point, but my concern is that it could be farmed in large amounts

 

I agree that the faction can be beaten by teamwork and coordination, but i don't want the game to be a game of biggest guns and power, i don't expect the middle faction to have a iron grip on every sector but they would have enough under control to get large amount of resources.

 

Exodus wrecks would be a great way to get resources but i don't think it would be able to match the amount compared to people farming the AI attacks, it would definitely be enough to be useful

 

Avorion is also not an I win button.  If one group were to take over the galactic core they could still possibly lose if the rest of the major player factions ganged up on them.  Throw twice as many Xanion ships at Avorion ones and you are going to win.

 

I don't really care about a win condition im more concerned how fun it would be to play, personally i wouldn't want to grind for weeks on a hope to defeat someone. The game might not turn that way, but im just throwing out my ideas hoping its kept in mind while the game develops.

 

Im not bashing the game, i love it to way to much actually and don't want to see it fall like others have because it wasn't so fun for some casual people

 

hi! :)

 

i rly dont understand what you all mean? every galaxy is proc. generated. the "difficulty" on each game creates the "rarity" of each material.

 

btw in avorion you have 1million sectors. if the boss on 0:0 destroyed, the war of avorion begins and every ship crew costs money over time.

thats the same. a ultimative ship with 5.000 crewmembers costs over 50mio every hour. an full equipped fleet with

destroyers or/and battlecruisers costs over 200mio/h.

 

the game is perfect balanced actually how X³ Terran Conflict in my eyes

 

 

 

For one person that is a lot, but in terms of a whole player run faction that wouldn't be a problem to maintain. I even hope more than one person can run a faction or have vassals ect

[Dead8Eye]

For one person that is a lot, but in terms of a whole player run faction that wouldn't be a problem to maintain. I even hope more than one person can run a faction or have vassals ect

 

i dont know on what for an server you are playing but i play with an own faction ( 9 people) on an server with the difficulty "hard" since weeks while we aren´t in the 0sec´s of galaxy yet. the "best" faction actually has problems to get the money for the mass of crew taxes.

with 1Billion Credits, you can only pay the membership of your own battlecruiser and some pvp supported structures. (you need shields, crews, turrets and support ships for each station. to make an huge business to get the money for your crews, you need very large facilities. tradingroutes are fully custom because NPC routes are in the "end-level" not useful)

 

i understand if your faction only plays in PVE (so i think) but on PVE and PVP servers, it is an other gameplay and perfect balanced. hint: check your server options if you are the admin for harder difficulty settings.

 

the only thing what will be a rly nice thing is, to get more options as server admin to make more custom changes. actually it is only possible with mods.

[DivineEvil]

I do quite believe that resources are infinite not from asteroids but from AI attacks and recourse traders(the amount you can get from traders is quite low tbh), with a good and organised team of people they could farm to get almost anything. I see salvaging as being better to mining.

 

I haven't been in the center for a huge amount of time, but from my time in there i found quite a bit of Avorion but if it really isn't that plentiful as i think then ill concede on that point, but my concern is that it could be farmed in large amounts.

 

I agree that the faction can be beaten by teamwork and coordination, but i don't want the game to be a game of biggest guns and power, i don't expect the middle faction to have a iron grip on every sector but they would have enough under control to get large amount of resources.

Yes, but then its a question of player participation. If a strong faction has a stable roster with persistent income of resources with appropriate protection, they deserve these resources. These factors yield much more power and influence, that mere resources.

 

Its my opinion, from past experience at least, that an organized team of people with a fleet of Iron Titans can easily outmatch Avorion-using bunch with questionable participation. At this point, you probably already have figured out yourself, that players is the ultimate resource, and Developers do not have anything to do with that aspect, nether have to. If guerrilla-warfare against such a concord is not fun, people will just find competition where its fair and let them sit on their Avorion thrones all they like. If it will turn into an despotic Empire, well... good luck to them.

 

I don't really care about a win condition im more concerned how fun it would be to play, personally i wouldn't want to grind for weeks on a hope to defeat someone. The game might not turn that way, but im just throwing out my ideas hoping its kept in mind while the game develops.

 

Im not bashing the game, i love it to way to much actually and don't want to see it fall like others have because it wasn't so fun for some casual people

Your concern is understandable; I just don't think that Avorion is a game-breaker of that sort. Sure, having top-quality ships is a significant lever, but its not strong enough to flip the Galaxy on its head. I for one would be perfectly fine playing with Trinium/Xanion and fighting other players with the same tech-level. Now, if somebody would try to (even if its possible to begin with) exploit Avorion for aggressive expansion, its time for some diplomacy. War, war never changes.

 

You know what is not fun? Having nothing to fight over. This is what Starmade turned out to become. Even on the most active servers, I literally had people finding me trough Home-base coordinates and killing me while I'm mining in an unarmed salvage rig, and recording it to brag about on the forums, as if it was some sort of accomplishment - all because resource distribution is uniform, and asteroids respawn faster than you can mine them. I'm certain you can feel now what I felt back then.