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koonschi

Beta Branch Patchnotes 0.10.4.7565

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You could use the tool to select blocks by drawing a frame around them.

Alternatively, if you click on the merge block button, it should try to merge everything as good as possible. If the thrusters are connected, you would end up with a lot less blocks.

 

Edit: I have fixed your image to show up in the post :)

 

thanks for the fix.

 

I would use the frame, if the thrusters were in good spots, but some are completely hidden under layers and layers of other ship parts.

 

 

eB2JGyl.jpg

 

 

Also, here's a question, koonschi:

 

did you just made thrusters obsolete? what's the point of having them, if they do nothing now?

 

 

KRAq5Rn.jpg

my transformed biggest thrusters changed my ship into a torch. looks cool though

 

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Also, here's a question, koonschi:

 

did you just made thrusters obsolete? what's the point of having them, if they do nothing now?

 

Well,

 

As I said, you have to rebuild your ships. Don't compare your old ship build in old vs new versions, that's not going to work. Mechanics were changed. I gave you new blocks, use them, then come back and give feedback.

 

Overall thruster power went up. They apply stronger forces. The thing that got nerfed was the rotational behaviour, as I already said. I removed artificial strength in different locations leading to a reduction of rotational speed to 1/6 of its earlier value. It got nerfed hard and I'm working on a better solution other than to artificially crank values up.

 

If you don't believe me on the numbers, build an engine, build a directional brake thruster of the same size, and compare the brake thrust to the engine thrust. Use the new directional thrusters to adjust your stats.

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Hello Everyone!

 

The first thing that happened after logging in my singleplayer world was: I wrecked my ship after about five seconds. First thought: WTF. Then I read the patchnotes, loaded said ship into my creative world, removed 2/3 of my thrusters, added two directional thrusters and thats it. Behaves like a dream. Time to figure it out was about one and a half hours, and it was fun. Its always fun to solve a problem. I personally like the changes. The rotational speed is fine now in my opinion.

One thing to add would be a key to disable the break thrust after releasing the controls to enable full newtonian physics. Rotating the ship would then not change its moving direction as long as you dont accelerate in any direction. I think Freelancer has that. I always liked it because it gives you a choice. You can use it, but you dont have to.

Over all, I like the game very much.

Thanks for all the good work!

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Also, here's a question, koonschi:

 

did you just made thrusters obsolete? what's the point of having them, if they do nothing now?

 

Well,

 

As I said, you have to rebuild your ships. Don't compare your old ship build in old vs new versions, that's not going to work. Mechanics were changed. I gave you new blocks, use them, then come back and give feedback.

 

Overall thruster power went up. They apply stronger forces. The thing that got nerfed was the rotational behaviour, as I already said. I removed artificial strength in different locations leading to a reduction of rotational speed to 1/6 of its earlier value. It got nerfed hard and I'm working on a better solution other than to artificially crank values up.

 

If you don't believe me on the numbers, build an engine, build a directional brake thruster of the same size, and compare the brake thrust to the engine thrust. Use the new directional thrusters to adjust your stats.

 

 

Yeah, yeah, I get it, don't sweat it.

I just got frustrated that my ship is a brick now - I'll build a new ship.

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I would personally vote against rotation buffs. Some artificial buffs to reduce sliding? Yeah, probably. More rotation? no pls. Well, probably non-linear calculation of momentum (easy to get to, say, 0.25 rotation, but hard to increase it further). That might work.

 

Almost every ship I've looked at in this beta has significantly less Yaw and Pitch. Like roughly half. Roll is less, too. Further, Brake Thrust seems identical to before. Edit: Brake thrust may be about the same on certain small-ish ships. But it is significantly less on some large ships. On AstroOwl's Alligator it went from 57.4 to 12.5.

 

...

 

I'm thinking that this is because it's such a huge, HUGE ship and that size affects how severely this patch's gimp to Thrusters affects a ship. I say this because AstroOwl's Alligator is a rather large ship and it ended up with nearly zero Yaw/Pitch/Roll thanks to this update. (See below.)

 

Alligator was made with abusing terrible thruster layering mechanics. If you try such ship in Beta, then yes, it is percieved as nerf.

 

But if you build the ship in a way good for Beta mechanics, and then try it in stable, ship would also get "crippled".

 

This change is not "nerf", it's just another, much more sane approach to creating ships. Attempting old approach in new mechanics, and vice versa, would end badly.

 

I've just redone Alligator for new mechanics (Link to the post). Changes compared with old Alligator in stable branch:

 

Thrust: 42.4 -> 59.8

Br. Thr: 57.4 -> 66.5

Yaw: 0.11 -> 0.27

Pitch: 0.18 -> 0.23

Roll: 0.31 -> 0.35

 

Improved dynamics of the ship. In every aspect.

 

At the expense of: Hull: 213K -> 180K.

 

Yeah, thrusters now take space! That is really terrible(no). Mainly because we are so used to possibility to achieve high rotation/braking with almost no volume dedicated for thrusters.

 

Achieving high brake thrust required a lot of space (partially achieved by reducing engines volume), but rotation was rather easy to achieve.

 

I don't think we need more rotation buffs, tbh. Most of the thrusters volume was dedicated to brake speed.

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Err, is there anything special you have to do to get the game to update, or am I just stupid? Client is still on 0.10.2 r7448. Tried looking to see if there was a "nightly" build to opt into, but nothing there.

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Err, is there anything special you have to do to get the game to update, or am I just stupid? Client is still on 0.10.2 r7448. Tried looking to see if there was a "nightly" build to opt into, but nothing there.

 

Pick "Beta, newest changes" in Beta-verisons tab of Steam, in game properties.

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Err, is there anything special you have to do to get the game to update, or am I just stupid? Client is still on 0.10.2 r7448. Tried looking to see if there was a "nightly" build to opt into, but nothing there.

 

Pick "Beta, newest changes" in Beta-verisons tab of Steam, in game properties.

 

Yeah, got it now. The drop down button in the box wasn't working, so I assumed there was no beta branch available. But the down arrows moved the options. Not sure why my drop down wasn't working lol. Thanks!

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if you want something that rotates fast, fly a corvette and smaller. also, create longer leverage arms for your thrusters instead of placing them all centerline.

 

Been there. Done that. Even with a small ship and even with thrusters on long leverage arms, to get something that rotates fast also requires something like four times the volume of Thrusters to Engine volume, maybe more. Also, having long leverage arms on all ships looks rather silly, IMO.

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I just want to say.. please don't limit our creativity with not allowing big ships to turn and act like an interceptor. That is what I loved so much in 10.2.. I didn't feel restrained and limited to my creations.. only my resources were my limit.

 

in 10.2 making a huge yet maneuverable actually was very costly. Because of the use of like 100+ thin slices, it became VERY costly and in a way that seemed like the trade off. If you wanted that, you had to pay up but you were not restricted to such a design.

 

I hope this game really doesn't go to realism with huge ships never being maneuverable.. thats no fun lol. How can we get a PVP of battlestar interceptors going?

 

My points of interest that I find the most enjoyable was

+ battling for loot (Not making it with turret factories except miners)

+ Exploring

+ Fighting tougher enemies / having bigger events happen

+ Building ships

+ Building awesome superships even though the cost was ALOT.. gave me goals to save up for it. I enjoyed that a lot.. felt like reaching a milestone

 

I have hopes for the future as we all know the Dev working very hard, just never forget FUN, screw realism lol.. its not a SIM.

 

BTW the 180 flip burn is pretty sweet lol

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In my opinion, having thruster arms on ships is great.  I love the nods to realistic design in this game, and if or when we actually get out into space, ships with long arms for thruster leverage will be de rigeur.  I'd personally love it if the game were even more realistic with us having to take into account center of mass and thrust differential and all that, meaning you have to really think about where you place your engines and keep them balanced to the ship's center of mass rather than slapping them on anywhere and having them apply their thrust equally across the entire aft face of the ship, but I understand that this game isn't designed to be an engineering- and physics-accurate simulation.  Nevertheless the more steps we can take towards that, the better.  Your typical sci-fi spaceship would actually be functionally useless in the deep space of real life.  Seeing the game encourage ship designs that have at least token nods to realism, like Babylon 5's Starfury (my personal favorite starcraft of any sci-fi universe), makes me very happy.

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rebuilt my ship with the new thrusters in beta, I honestly don't mind it much.  if you ask me thrusters are in a decent area.  and this is with a large ship and 15 upgrade slots capable.  turns like a rusty garbage truck but better than a barge that drifts through the town tearing everything up.

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Did some further testing and rebuilt my current ship. had definetly to get rid of some armor and integrity field generators, to get the space for more/bigger thrusters, without having to change the overall design. It was about 1.5h work, but ok. I also changed the thrusters to directional ones, since I had them already set up as directional thrusters in the first place.

 

Definetly need some more time to get used to the new flight-physics. Still a lot of splippy-sliding, over- and underestimating of acceleration/velocities and brakethrust.

 

overall the changes are sane and feel good. but I still think the thrusters could have a little bit more power.

 

there is just one thing bothering me: stacked thin thrusters produce still more thrust than a single block of the same size as the stack. I think that calculation needs to be fixed, so that the thrust of stack and single block equals.

 

Btw. I'm missing the prograde pointer to the retrograde pointer. that would be great ;)

 

Speaking of wishes...: a key to switch auto-brake on and off <3

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The last post nails it imo.

Prograde pointer would be quite handy.

Switching autobrake off would be VERY handy (like seriously, extremely handy and fun)

Single blockpower=power a multiple blocks with same overall size is necessary.

 

And MOST important for me - actual speed display, we really need some nice info about our actual speed, it would help tremendeously, as speed perception can be misleading (sometimes I fly at 1500m/s thinking I barely move, and than slam into station or smthing... quite surprising experience :D)

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Q: How many of you who've successfully updated your ships to fly better for this beta swapped most (or even all) of your regular Thrusters for the new Directional Thrusters?

 

I think this is an important question because, as far as I can tell, Directional Thrusters make regular Thrusters obsolete. Why do I say this? Because:

  • Directional Thrusters only require a fraction of the Engineers as regular Thrusters. With this patch, with regular Thrusters, my small ships required 4 or 5 Engineers (which, for a small ship with only 2 or 3 module slots, seems excessive), but when I filled the same volume with Directional Thrusters, I managed to get by with just 1 Engineer.
  • Directional Thrusters are much more effective than regular Thrusters. On my designs, anyway, I could get more than double the maneuvering thrust with Directional Thrusters (in place of regular Thrusters) by having them face forward on long leverage arms. Doing it that way, they provide lots of Brake Thrust with a very significant added bonus of either Yaw or Pitch (never Roll, though). It's rather easy to end up with more Brake Thrust than Engine Thrust. Only a small fraction of my Directional Thrusters are aimed in any direction but forward (maybe 10 or 15%) and that's mostly to get a bit of Roll.

 

(Yes, I remember that LoSboccacc suggested creating long leverage arms for our thrusters. But it was not specified that this is only very effective when used with Directional Thrusters.)

 

Here's an image of a ship I just finished. You can see that each leverage arm is about half the length of the ship. Oh, and each nacelle is about 90% Directional Thrusters. I only added thin wafers of Engines in each. Over 95% of the Engines are in the main body. Though, I'm still a bit worried about how fragile leverage arms can be (a weak point for the enemy to blow off a nacelle).

 

Thun_Predator_Ir_3_back.jpg

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I for sure need to play with directional thrusters more. I feel I did not do them right since I seem to always just get brake thrust with them and never rotational/ pitch etc. After seeing some threads I am going to take another stab at it.

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Directional Thursters works perfectly for my ship. In fact, it works better than I expected. So much so that I ended up removing some thrusters to use the space for other stuff like shields and crew space.

 

Not sure about the size of my ship now, but it has 10 System Slots. Bigger ships might be different, but I don't see the need for gyro's with how things are currently. The new thrusters give us that control we wanted. If done right, these new thrusters work great and you don't even need to pancake anything  ;)

 

Not sure if the normal thrusters are actually needed now, but more blocks/options is also a good thing.

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Directional Thursters works perfectly for my ship. In fact, it works better than I expected. So much so that I ended up removing some thrusters to use the space for other stuff like shields and crew space.

 

Not sure about the size of my ship now, but it has 10 System Slots. Bigger ships might be different, but I don't see the need for gyro's with how things are currently. The new thrusters give us that control we wanted. If done right, these new thrusters work great and you don't even need to pancake anything  ;)

 

Not sure if the normal thrusters are actually needed now, but more blocks/options is also a good thing.

 

This is what I've been trying to say. The directional thrusters work even better than regular ones, all you have to do is put more thought into placement.

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I had to go D-Thruster heavy to get these stats, probably went overboard. So personally would like to see something to control pitch/yaw/roll a bit better. With the amount of thrusters on the ship currently, it accelerates faster going sideways than it does backwards or forwards lol and it would still be like that even if I cut the amount of thrusters to the point where i had next to no pitch/yaw.

 

Building big arms out of every ship doesn't appeal to me as the first asteroid field i traverse will likely be my grave xD (Everyone likes to build differently so forcing people into only 1 style doesnt seem like the best idea for a building game - is the point I'm trying to make I guess)

 

thrustorion.png

 

Completly unrelated but is it going to be possible eventually to merge edge blocks together?

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2EAADB8202842F661791164167608C4B52D816D3

 

These stats are actually better than before the update, since I reworked with D-Thrusters. I don't mind low rad/s,

 

Edit: The red stats are just because I have pros. Is bug.

 

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