manually set which blocks are tied to specific integrity fields.

[cy414]

this way people could 'zone' their ships to allow more survivability.

it'd certainly be easier to lose a chunk of a ship in collision than the whole ship.

[GrimJahk]

As I understand it, the way the integrity field works is by effectively doubling the HP of the block it is protecting. It's already -not- an "all or nothing" situation.

[Tsunamik]

not doubling - the block itself has 10x its durability

[GrimJahk]

Even better. ;)

[cy414]

As I understand it, the way the integrity field works is by effectively doubling the HP of the block it is protecting. It's already -not- an "all or nothing" situation.

pretty much, but the hp is still drawn from the whole ships hp, and fields overlap to form single large fields which is why we get people suffering insta death from clipping an asteroid.

what im asking for is the ability to section off this effect so it'd be contained in the area of that particular field.

[GrimJahk]

pretty much, but the hp is still drawn from the whole ships hp, and fields overlap to form single large fields which is why we get people suffering insta death from clipping an asteroid.

what im asking for is the ability to section off this effect so it'd be contained in the area of that particular field.

 

That doesn't make sense... if you take 5k damage from an impact with an object... enough to overwhelm the combined HP of your ship, how would re-coding the way blocks are tethered to technology change that? Are you suggesting that ALL 5k of that damage be absorbed by just a single set of blocks instead of the rest of the ship? Damage transfers... it does damage and kills a section then moves to the next section... until all the damage is assigned.

 

Wouldn't fixing the collision mechanics solve the problem? (Which needs to happen anyhow)

 

I'm really not trying to fight you here, just this seems incredibly complicated to add in a technology an THEN go through and assign association sets... if you are building a massive ship... hell even a medium ship... this would be incredibly tedious... let alone having access to all components.

[DougJunior]

I think he means that is a little stupid to Lose a complete ship when you strive a astroid with 1 block and the complete ship gets destroyed when the 1 block only could break up. Or the block with his attached section. When you ran a asteroid frontal or with the side it makes no difference but by brushing only a asteroid it's that you deal a little stupid.

[GrimJahk]

I think he means that is a little stupid to Lose a complete ship when you strive a astroid with 1 block and the complete ship gets destroyed when the 1 block only could break up. Or the block with his attached section. When you ran a asteroid frontal or with the side it makes no difference but by brushing only a asteroid it's that you deal a little stupid.

 

I completely agree that something is broken, and should be fixed. But fix the actual problem, don't over-engineer a work-around. ;)

[cy414]

That doesn't make sense... if you take 5k damage from an impact with an object... enough to overwhelm the combined HP of your ship, how would re-coding the way blocks are tethered to technology change that? Are you suggesting that ALL 5k of that damage be absorbed by just a single set of blocks instead of the rest of the ship? Damage transfers... it does damage and kills a section then moves to the next section... until all the damage is assigned.

basically.

by having the blocks in that field only draw hp from that one integrity... "module" hp total, rather than teh whole ship it would avoid situations where our whole ship blows up because a wing tip clipped an asteroid.

 

as much as it might blow that whole section, still easier to deal with than blowing the whole ship & crew.

[GrimJahk]

 

basically.

by having the blocks in that field only draw hp from that one integrity... "module" hp total, rather than teh whole ship it would avoid situations where our whole ship blows up because a wing tip clipped an asteroid.

 

as much as it might blow that whole section, still easier to deal with than blowing the whole ship & crew.

 

That still doesn't work... or more specifically, it does not solve the problem.

 

What you are suggesting (and I am HEAVILY oversimplifying here) would allow a ship with 500 HP to equip 5 Fields and assign 100 HP to each, and then mitigate four different Railgun shots that do 900 damage each... and still fly away.  And I reiterate, once you get into a larger ship, individually assigning each block to different fields is going to become a nightmare... Almost a week ago I suggested THIS as a solution to a different problem, but it could easily be adjusted to include managing "small" level asteroid impacts.

[cy414]

 

basically.

by having the blocks in that field only draw hp from that one integrity... "module" hp total, rather than teh whole ship it would avoid situations where our whole ship blows up because a wing tip clipped an asteroid.

 

as much as it might blow that whole section, still easier to deal with than blowing the whole ship & crew.

 

That still doesn't work... or more specifically, it does not solve the problem.

 

What you are suggesting (and I am HEAVILY oversimplifying here) would allow a ship with 500 HP to equip 5 Fields and assign 100 HP to each, and then mitigate four different Railgun shots that do 900 damage each... and still fly away.  And I reiterate, once you get into a larger ship, individually assigning each block to different fields is going to become a nightmare... Almost a week ago I suggested THIS as a solution to a different problem, but it could easily be adjusted to include managing "small" level asteroid impacts.

i can see why you are concerned about damage vs hp in that scenario, but honestly, doing 50k damage to a 500hp ship, only to have it limp away missing a massive chunk doesnt bother me. if that blow was glancing, so be it.

 

also, this wouldnt be doing the 500 hp damage from the whole ship, the fields themselves would be where the hp was drawn from. so in your scenario, 900 potential damage to that one module, would be that module destroyed.

[Sable Phoenix]

I actually have had this same idea, I think it's a fantastic one.  Ablative armor and damage compartmentalization is definitely a thing in real life engineering and design, I don't see why it shouldn't be in this game either, other than the fact that the procedural ships won't really be taking advantage of it (although I could easily see that being included in their seeding).

[GrimJahk]

I actually have had this same idea, I think it's a fantastic one.  Ablative armor and damage compartmentalization is definitely a thing in real life engineering and design, I don't see why it shouldn't be in this game either, other than the fact that the procedural ships won't really be taking advantage of it (although I could easily see that being included in their seeding).

 

I think where I am getting stubborn is that "Shields" are already a thing. If you are paying attention and haul-ass the moment they are close to failing you are almost untouchable...  If there was an ACTIVE armor system like EVE has this could make sense. but if you add this to the already OP nature of the existing Shield system it makes combat and "danger" in the game even more trivial.

 

The logic being used here means that... I can put 20 different "zones" onto my ship... each one a single piece of 20HP Iron Hull... (400 total HP) I now can be hit 19 times with a 1,000HP Railgun for a total of 19,000 damage. ...  when a single shot should have killed me.

 

Again, we are having this discussion based on an attempted solution to accidentally bumping into an asteroid... and I continue to stress that this kind of implementation will be both a challenge to code and a nightmare to actually implement for the person building their ship.

 

Modifying anything that affects combat is no small issue... especially if the purpose is only to make tougher fenders for your car...

 

Fix the collision mechanic first, or the collision avoidance mechanic first.

[cy414]

or maybe they just blow the core out of your ship, or decide to dissect you.

either way. using drag select and clicking a button isnt hard for a player to do. and i see no issues what-so-ever in letting players add engineering finesse to their designed.

 

as pointed out, damage compartmentalisation is a real and valid part of design.

[DivineEvil]

this way people could 'zone' their ships to allow more survivability.

it'd certainly be easier to lose a chunk of a ship in collision than the whole ship.

This suggestion is nonsense.

 

Intergrity fields has the same effect on all affected blocks - the size of IFG block only determines the area of application. All affected blocks have their individual HP increased by 10x, nothing more. There's no grouping mechanics involved, and suggestion will change nothing, except for adding the useless function.

 

If you want to prevent death from collision, have a root block in the back of the ship and/or increase the total ship HP value. Nothing aside from that is going to help.

[cy414]

This suggestion is nonsense.

 

Intergrity fields has the same effect on all affected blocks - the size of IFG block only determines the area of application. All affected blocks have their individual HP increased by 10x, nothing more. There's no grouping mechanics involved, and suggestion will change nothing, except for adding the useless function.

 

If you want to prevent death from collision, have a root block in the back of the ship and/or increase the total ship HP value. Nothing aside from that is going to help.

see, thing is, you can already create small localised integrity fields.

the only thing stopping my suggestion being reality is that the fields merge into one the moment to fields are in contact with each other. meaning leaving parts of the ship not covered at all.

 

my request boils down simply to control of that functionality to subdivide parts of the ship as if they where behind their own bulkheads.

[GrimJahk]

 

If you want to prevent death from collision, have a root block in the back of the ship and/or increase the total ship HP value. Nothing aside from that is going to help.

 

+1

 

Good:

Design a better ship

-or-

Stop driving into asteroids

 

Bad:

Ask the Dev to re-engineer the game so you don't have to be better.

 

 

see, thing is, you can already create small localised integrity fields.

the only thing stopping my suggestion being reality is that the fields merge into one the moment to fields are in contact with each other. meaning leaving parts of the ship not covered at all.

 

my request boils down simply to control of that functionality to subdivide parts of the ship as if they where behind their own bulkheads.

 

I've really tried to be polite and diplomatic... it's not working.

 

So, Here is blunt:

 

You are the only person championing this. It's been pointed out that it is NOT an easy thing to do and will affect the game adversely, but you push on... I have played this game for less than 200 hours and have only lost a ship ONCE due to collision when I slammed into another ship at high speed... My mistake, not the game's.

 

There is no NEED for this feature, there is no SUPPORT for this feature, and it has been shown to you in several different ways that this feature will make the game worse...

 

Yet you persist.

 

I can appreciate your passion for an idea.

I appreciate your sincere efforts to champion it.

 

But you need to learn to pick your fights... this is a fight that you cannot win, and the longer you keep fighting for it the more likely that people will tune you out, and a future good Idea may go unheard.

 

My last .02 on this thread...

[Sable Phoenix]

You say that it's been "demonstrated" many ways how this idea would be a bad thing, but that's not really true... you've just repeated that it would, without really getting into the actual game mechanics of how integrity fields work and how changing them to function in this way would destroy the game.  Frankly, getting so confrontational does more to weaken your argument than the OP's.

 

I'll fully admit that I may not (and very likely don't) understand the mechanics of integrity fields, or how ship HP and damage are calculated and assigned, but I think what the OP might be looking for (and frankly, this is the way I thought integrity fields would work as it just makes intuitive sense, before reading on the forums how they actually work) is something like this:

 

As I understand it, integrity fields not only apply a flat increase to the functional HP of the blocks they cover, they also tie those blocks' "life", if you will, to the hitpoint pool of the entire ship, meaning that if the block dies the whole ship dies.  It's a weird mechanic that doesn't make intuitive sense, and can result losing an entire ship to an impact that only actually hits a single antenna.  What if, when you apply an integrity field that covers, say, one quarter of your ship, the blocks' HP is tied to the integrity field generator, rather than the ship as a whole.  In other words, the HP pool only consists of the blocks in the actual integrity field.  Let's say that's 1000 HP worth.  Let's also say that you take a volley of railgun slugs into that "crumple zone" that totals 2000 damage.  Everything in that integrity field is simply sheared off instantly by 1000 of that damage; the remaining slugs are free to continue and hit the rest of the ship, if they're angled correctly, dealing their damage to whatever other parts of the ship they hit, if any.

 

You mention that this would be too powerful when combined with shields, and that's entirely possible.  Frankly, I think shields are too powerful already, but that is a different discussion for a different thread.  Suffice to say this kind of mechanic paired with a reduction in shield health pools and effectiveness would allow for more interesting combat scenarios.

[GrimJahk]

You say that it's been "demonstrated" many ways how this idea would be a bad thing, but that's not really true... you've just repeated that it would, without really getting into the actual game mechanics of how integrity fields work and how changing them to function in this way would destroy the game.  Frankly, getting so confrontational does more to weaken your argument than the OP's.

 

I'll fully admit that I may not (and very likely don't) understand the mechanics of integrity fields, or how ship HP and damage are calculated and assigned, but I think what the OP might be looking for (and frankly, this is the way I thought integrity fields would work as it just makes intuitive sense, before reading on the forums how they actually work) is something like this:

 

As I understand it, integrity fields not only apply a flat increase to the functional HP of the blocks they cover, they also tie those blocks' "life", if you will, to the hitpoint pool of the entire ship, meaning that if the block dies the whole ship dies.  It's a weird mechanic that doesn't make intuitive sense, and can result losing an entire ship to an impact that only actually hits a single antenna.  What if, when you apply an integrity field that covers, say, one quarter of your ship, the blocks' HP is tied to the integrity field generator, rather than the ship as a whole.  In other words, the HP pool only consists of the blocks in the actual integrity field.  Let's say that's 1000 HP worth.  Let's also say that you take a volley of railgun slugs into that "crumple zone" that totals 2000 damage.  Everything in that integrity field is simply sheared off instantly by 1000 of that damage; the remaining slugs are free to continue and hit the rest of the ship, if they're angled correctly, dealing their damage to whatever other parts of the ship they hit, if any.

 

You mention that this would be too powerful when combined with shields, and that's entirely possible.  Frankly, I think shields are too powerful already, but that is a different discussion for a different thread.  Suffice to say this kind of mechanic paired with a reduction in shield health pools and effectiveness would allow for more interesting combat scenarios.

Point made and accepted. I will admit to frustration.

 

Integrity field is explained very well at the bottom of this thread.  The way it's designed now, pieces break away when they have taken too much damage, and it will spill over on to the next block, then that block will take damage, and so forth until all damage is dealt. The original design was bonding the pieces together in a collected HP pool. Now each block has effectively 10x HP, and is separate.

 

What the OP seems to be asking for is the ability to assign a block to a particular field, and once that block is destroyed the rest of the damage poofs with that block (and associated field) and does not carry over to the rest of the ship.  I will use this comical example: place a grenade on a jigsaw puzzle, it blows up, now one piece is missing, and the table it was on, and the floor, and walls, but the rest of the puzzle is in tact.

 

This is his preferred solution to having a collision with an asteroid that destroys his ship.

 

I have had MANY collisions with asteroids, never lost a ship from it. The collision mechanics are... weird... it seems to have a foundation of VOLUME calculation (not mass or density) AKA "Bigger = Win"  a small ship hitting a medium Asteroid = Small ship loses (as it should). Huge ship hits a small asteroid = doesn't notice(not necessarily right).

 

Volume of 1Million^3M of marshmallow bumps into a 1^3m Diamond in this scenario the diamond vaporizes. (not right)

 

If we wanted to get into reality, space ships are hollow cans, asteroids are solid mass... MASS is the issue here. Density matters. 20lb metal trashcan Vs 10lb Bowling Ball... which one wins? I bet the can dents first.

 

As I said before here. The OPs issue is with the broken collision mechanics. They need to be fixed. I expect when they get higher on the priority list, they will be.  Changing the damage resolution mechanics, the design mechanics, and how the player must interact with a "technology" that had no interaction before are all HUGE coding projects that have far reaching implications. Thus I'd wager that it's not got a chance in hell of making it to the game... IF the only reason is to keep a newbie ship from blowing up upon touching an asteroid.

 

Does this explain my position better and demonstrate the reasons this would be bad?

[Ishmod]

Honestly the ops suggestion while understandable is MOOT since everything he asked for it is possible already . DONT OVER LAP YOUR FIELDS .. tested this on big carrier ship incredibley tedious to size and place field blocks for this  but it works...badly... but it works) both in combat and flying hell bent for leather through asteroid field ... field covered sections pop  non field sections separate the ajoining field and is safe .. ship no boom.

[DougJunior]

When you want your result that the complett ship gets not killed by a glims on a astroid, dont equip a integrity fields.

And when you think you can select them by hand, you never build a ship bigger than a tank....

[DivineEvil]

Again, specifically for people with attention problems, IFGs do not pool the block HPs - they only increase individual block durability tenfold. You place a IFG block, however small or large, and all blocks in its area of effect has 10x HP, or more intuitively, they take only 10% damage. There's no difference what and how many blocks are in the IGF's area of effect, the result is the same for all blocks.

 

There's only two ways your ship can be destroyed by collision - either the ship takes lethal HP damage, which calculated based on the mass ratio of colliding objects, multiplied by absolute sum of momentum, or the Root block (the block, that all other blocks are attached to hierarchically) destroyed directly. Integrity Field Generators can only affect the latter, by allowing Root block and all blocks in front of it to take more damage before being broken individually. Whether you have small or large IFG zones is completely irrelevant.

[SageThe13th]

Some of this confusion might be avoided if the wiki were actually updated to the correct information.

[Sable Phoenix]

Okay so integrity fields are basically a flat 90% damage reduction to all damage received by each individual block?

 

Is that only on the beta version, or public release?  Because I myself have experienced (it was an experiment in my Creative Mode galaxy) ramming an asteroid with a small, fast iron ship at high speed while equipped with integrity fields.  The only part of the ship that contacted the asteroid was a long, thin spar (a diagonal spar, so made up of multiple small blocks) on the front of the ship.  The entire ship instantly detonated.  Without the integrity field, the spar simply shears off, leaving the rest of the ship lacking a percentage of HP but otherwise unharmed.

[DivineEvil]

Okay so integrity fields are basically a flat 90% damage reduction to all damage received by each individual block?

Yes.

 

Is that only on the beta version, or public release?  Because I myself have experienced (it was an experiment in my Creative Mode galaxy) ramming an asteroid with a small, fast iron ship at high speed while equipped with integrity fields.  The only part of the ship that contacted the asteroid was a long, thin spar (a diagonal spar, so made up of multiple small blocks) on the front of the ship.  The entire ship instantly detonated.  Without the integrity field, the spar simply shears off, leaving the rest of the ship lacking a percentage of HP but otherwise unharmed.

The damage you get from collisions depends on 3D-physics, so you can't draw conclusions from these two completely different cases. The only important difference between the two, is that in first case your total ship HP was depleted, and in second it wasn't. You can ram an asteroid in a large ship, get destroyed, yet the wreckage left will be completely intact from the outside.

[cy414]

--ego & hyperbole--

except others in this thread have supported it, and have already said this is a system that ALREADY works. just badly.

getting something that already works badly to work well is far from unreasonable. its an integral part of open beta/early access testing.

 

this isnt like putting a grenade on a puzzle expecting all teh damage to be absorbed by one piece.

its like shooting a bus with a tank and taking it as normal if the round goes right through inflicting only 2 holes, instead of blowing up the entire thing.

 

the issue of shields being op past mid-game is a separate issue from this.

 

and frankly, if you are the sort of person to tune someone out for not agreeing with you on each point, and viewing every exchange as a fight. that is a problem entirely down to you and your safe space.