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Posts posted by SageThe13th

  1. And here's where you're wrong.  A ship half the size of a 15 slot ship has 13 slots.  If I and buddy wanted to stop you and we each only had half you resources we'd still end up with almost double your firepower.

    No because you will never have HALF of my resources at that lvl. I have multi millions of Avorion and Xanion while you will have around 500k of each.


    Also a 14 slot ship has at max around 2 mill shields and 1 mill haul any larger then this and it becomes a 15 slot.


    My ship has 10Mill shields and 5mill haul and 600k dps a second that means you can take 5 seconds at max of me shooting at you and you are dead!


    Even if you had a combined 1200k dps (witch there is no way you do) you would both die before my shields fell.

    ATM the game is very prominently bigger is better orientated. :(


    edit: I just realize the Dps I gave is on the extreme end of the spectrum lol. That's just the lvl a few players have obtain to.

    Typically a 14 slot ship has around 40k dps  and a 15 slot normal player has 200k dps with comparable shield and haul stats as I stated.

    This sill leave the 15 slot ship the winier every time. Even agents  3 or 4 small ships.


    Rather make numbers up I decided to look at an in game ship.  These four pictures are the same same ship scaled to four different sizes.










    Note that the 15 slot ship doesn't even have double the 13 slot version's Hp.  Now, if your 15 slot ship is well over 15 slot mark then you are wasting resources.  If a ship is 0.30 billion m3 volume you could have built two 15 slots ships (0.14 bil) and doubled you potential firepower.

  2. However you do know in the current game a Xanion tire, 9 slot ship can go back to a Naonite area and absolutely destroy every thing without ever having to worry about dying.  And my 600k om 15 slot ship currently could never be even damaged by any thing less then another 15 slot ship.

    I am sad to say the dream you have don't exist in any shape or form right now in game. I can kill stations around the core with my current ship with ease and nothing in the sector can stop me EVER. If I so wished I could wipe out every faction down to extinction.


    And here's where you're wrong.  A ship half the size of a 15 slot ship has 13 slots.  If I and buddy wanted to stop you and we each only had half you resources we'd still end up with almost double your firepower.

  3. Been crash testing my ship designs lately and this has led me to hide my root block a few layers of systems + an armor layer inside my ship. Now the only time I can ever seem to destroy my ship in 1 hit is by full-boosting straight into an asteroid. On full collision damage if I'm not boosting full speed face first into an asteriod I generally just bounce off with relative damage. If its other ships or stations I hit then depending on its HP I either smash straight through or send them spinning.


    (I've become convinced if your root block takes enough damage your ship will be destroyed no matter how much hp it had, which is why I started giving it extra protection and it seems to be working for the most part)


    Yes the root block has Hp equal to the ship's no matter what block type it is.  Therefore if you run into an asteroid and you root block gets hit it's easy to lose the whole ship.

  4. Since there is such a divide, then perhaps the answer is making it possible to mod this into the game, if it isn't already.


    If there's a foundation that allows it, and people who want it, then the modding community will make it


    Actually, that's a great thought... however... lets go back to ROI assessment... Is it a smart use of resources to invest time and funds into creating and integrating code, on the off chance that someone else will build a MOD to utilize it? 


    (if the code was already in place for this to happen easily, we would have seen it by now... if only for testing reasons...)


    That all depends on how much time and what value is returned... If the code is an interface adaptation to allow overwriting of core coded systems... Like the booster mentioned, It may only be a day or three of coding that the Modding Community would go crazy over... so maybe... If that same code requires two to four weeks of time and has to be retrofitted into the core of the game... probably not happening ... soon.


    There is great benefit to working with and helping the modding community thrive, and I'm reasonably sure the DEVs see that...


    Again... I don't hate on this idea... but as others have said... it's too complex... whether or not I'd actually use it, it has no value NOW but later? Who knows?


    With a shiny future in the hands of the modding community, I fully expect to see all kinds of things down the road... including themed mod-packs and the like...

    Yeah, it not like this idea wouldn't work.  It does work for From the Depths.  It's just that this change would require the dev to remove the old system that the game is built around.  Design and install the new system.  This would take a lot longer than just trying to fix current system.


  5. #2 Here.


    I dislike needing to enter build mode to change out turrets. I want hardpoints (blocks) that allow me to change out turrets from a management screen.


    When you save your current ship design it loses the turret info, so having hardpoints would be a great fix IMO



    NOTE: you left out of the option list the currently mentioned integration of blueprints... Which I love... I hope that kills the need to play cargo hauler for hours on end ;-)


    A turret mount system would also be useful for mass production.  Making not only the space frame but, also having it come equipped with systems and turrets right out of the shipyard.

  6. I played games that use block built weapon system mechanics before.  Starmade and From the Depths.  And it ends up with people making ridiculously sized guns.  Now it's really cool to be able to construct a ship around a central weapon system.  But, you also get people making absolutely huge turrets as well.  We really need a system that isn't more blocks = more power.

  7. Well to be fair insane difficulty is misnamed.  After all it's the difficultly level in which NPCs start doing 100% damage.  That sounds more like the normal difficulty level to me.


    My suggestion was to use multiple difficulty settings so players can make the game not just harder, but challenging in the way they find most interesting.

    Suggestion topic here: http://www.avorion.net/forum/index.php/topic,2350.0.html


    Another problem is the game isn't really designed to handle 15 system ships right now.  I consider this something of a soft cap on ship size.  Yet when you get to this point nothing can really stand up to you.  The game should really account for the fact that people are going to build these monsters.

  8. Did i say otherwise? No!


    Can you even imagine implementing PvP into the game and saying "nope, we won't balance it at all!".

    Ofc the devs say they want to balance it, cause they want to balance EVERYTHING in Avorion... it's kind of what they dream about. :D


    All i said was PvP isn't important for Avorion, and as such balancing the game towards good PvP should be put on a lower priority.


    Quite right.  I misread your post.  Also it's funny you should mention having PvP and not balancing it because I believe that's what EVE's policy was.


    ... I'm guessing you haven't been playing ay of the PVP-only games released these last few years, they've all been going exactly opposite of what you claim.


    As an example, World of Tanks used to have classes that were actually balanced.

    Then the inevitable happened, the Hardcore PVPers bawwed and whined at the devs, and a plethora of nerfs and buffs happened, and it got to be impossible to actually hurt the hardcore pvpers, and the majority of the players left.



    The Developers of nearly any game where PVP is allowed to occur, tend towards balance.

    The Players DON'T.


    The PVPers gravitate directly towards the least-balanced aspects/characters/strategies. Anything and everything that isn't explicitly patched out, they do to gain an infinitesmal "edge" against the other PVPers, and anyone who hasn't been PVPing the entire time, is "free xp".


    Look at the original Smash Brothers.


    Look at Tekken. (literally, any of them)

    Look at StreetFighter, and BlazBlue, and SoulCaliber.


    Look at League of Legends, and DoTA, and even StarCraft.


    All of them have some manner of exploit, that all the "good" (read, hardcore+ranked_battle_leader) PVPers are abusing literally every battle they think they can get away with it.

    (World of Tanks is particularly bad on this front, the devs encourage mod use, except in "tournament" play. Guess what the most popular mod is?  an aimbot. guess how the devs pick tourney players? by stats. Kills vs deaths being the most important stat.)


    Now, a GOOD developer, will actually keep track of what exploits occur, and will remove the from the code.

    A BAD developer, will make it easier to perform the exploit. (I'm looking at you, Smash Brothers 2, making Fox's exploit bull**** from the first game into an actual move, and even more powerfull too.)


    A truly horrendous developer, will simply nerf the snot out of anything the PVPers claim need nerfing. (naturally, anything that could possibly hurt their precious stats gets the nerf, usually followed by a swift demotion to "utterly useless, why is this still in the game?")



    Let's use an example from within Avorion.


    PVPers that don't have morals, they use Railguns to the exclusion of all other weapons.

    Why? because railguns are bugged such that they do full penetrative damage to the Ship HP, even if blocked by armor.


    Now, the typical PVPer response whenever a player mentions the horribly broken nature of the weapon, is to cry that "it's not broken, you just suck" or the battlecry of the jackass: "git gud noob".


    I'm genuinely surprised that sort of thing hasn't been seen all that often on these forums.

    (the steam forums for Avorion has a fairly high incidence of it, usually followed by a mod Deleting it.)



    Hell, going back to Every game with PVP ever:

    Advanced PVPers eventually get bored of actually fighting one another, (because it's hard to advance their stats vs an evenly matched opponent) and descend upon the only player type that developers should be giving a damn about more than any other: the New Player.


    Guess what this joyous fest of beating on the newbie so he decides "this game is garbage" and leaves forever is called?

    Seal clubbing.  Because it is exactly as easy as going forth and killing a baby seal with a club to the skull.


    There's nothing the New Player can do to prevent his imminent demise. Meanwhile, the PVPer has just improved his stats.  Another kill for him!


    The only games you don't see this sort of behavior in, are the games where the PVPers are segregated away from everyone else.  They can murder the crap out of each other, and eventually a player can decide "I want me somma that" and banish themselves to the land of PVP.


    Why does this happen?  Mostly because Developers quit caring, and allow it to happen.


    This correct for the most part.  You have people who want a balanced game and an even playing field.  But, it will get ruined by the guys who use exploits to win.  And once everybody sees them dominating everyone just seems to jump on the band wagon.

  9. Forget the ECM sorry i mentioned it. The point was more along the lines of the person who suggested the cloaking mechanic, unless small ships are given some kind of advantage, whether it be speed, maneuverability, weapon avoidance or something that only a small ship can utilize then they are basically just neutered large ships and will never last in a fight. It's why our battleships don't even break a sweat when 20 alien ships and pirates warp in because the are to small and their firepower to low to do any damage. If we are not allowed to speculate beyond what's in the game how would you suggest we balance small and large ship battles.


    You can bring it up.  But, the discussion about ECM started to turn into it's own thing separate from the actual discussion topic.  Cloaking is also a planned feature and ECM is not.  I'm fine having a long talk about ECM in the right place for it.


    Also, don't take NPC ships as any indication of things.  I fought every boss in the game, except the pirate one, with a ship that was smaller.  Does that mean little ships always beat big ships?  No.  It means the AI was designed to lose.

  10. That was just a thought to help with balance, i was not trying to force it on anyone, i think the game is fine the way it is.

    I guess we will see how this game

    Im sorry i forgot the one rule about these forums, Pro -Pvo suggestions only.

    If this game actually puts single player and coop play first, and doesn't cater to the pvp whiners, it will be the first to do so. If you disagree with that then you havnt played that many multiplayer games.


    We're here to talk about small ship balance.  Discussing some non-existent ECM system is pointless.  Take it to the suggestion sub-forum instead.

  11. I've been reading this and no one's being condescending.  If you're getting frustrated to the point where you automatically read the other poster's tone has hostile take a break.
    Let me clarify, just for the sake of argument - oreganor's post is littered with remarks and questions, that seem to try diminishing my character is such a way, as if I don't know what I'm talking about and writing my opinion on his proposal just for the lulz. Here they are:


    I will highlight again the important part of the phrase you chose to ignore:
    Apparently, I deliberately ignore parts of the post.


    It's preaty simple, have you tried to smooth whatever ship you have... Expose it to fire WITHOUT any IFG and then proceed to replace the "nice" corners with equivalent blocks?
    Apparently, I also write long factual notes on properties of sloped blocks, while myself too lazy to use them and build ships by simply stacking bricks.


    Erm... Have you checked what REALLY happens on a collision in a given section WITH and without current IFG? Please do so...

    Apparently, I also write elaborate posts on the topic, that I has no idea about and didn't done any prior research.


    But do not trust what I write... Simply test it... But be sure that you keep your Galaxy with collision damage on... Obviously if you remove this factor, you simply can't see the fatal flaw this implementation will show when players exploit it.
    Apparently, I also play without collision damage, and do comments on collision mechanics without any experience.


    I hope the rest of this forum users pay more attention to what's written before going around fabricating arguments.
    Damn, he totally busted me!


    Don't get me wrong, I'm much more frustrated over the abusive three-dot punctuation, than over what anyone assumes or pretends to know about me.


    How is the system counter intuitive?  IGF increase block health.  Eventually the Hp of each block in equal to the Hp of the ship.  How progression is counter intuitive?
    I'm talking about the proposed mechanics, not the current state.


    Please don't waste posts pointing out that people on the internet are jerks.  Stick to the topic at hand.  Again, I'm just reading your posts as a neutral observer yet you two seem to be getting worked up over it.

  12. Freelancer was one of the greatest games ever (i play this game because it reminds me so much of Freelancer) it was not a multiplayer pvp game and it still has an active community. A game that is fun to play in single player will be fun to play in multiplayer. Multiplayer does not always mean PVP. This game claims i can explore, trade, build, mine and fight; but since the pvp crowd (who will abuse any system put in place) are always the most vocal the they are the ones who get catered to. Pvp players should play games designed and balanced around combat. Arena style, deathmatch style games where things are balanced a certain way and countered a certain way.  Instead they come to games like this where they can abuse the games and give themselves crazy advantages because they don't like to play fair and then complain that there is no one to fight them. And all the while the non-pvp crowd gets left out of development because they don't speak up. So eventually the pvp crowd finds another game with even cooler way to kill people that they can abuse while the rest of us are left with a game with no cool features because of potential pvp abuse.

    I wish game developed would stop listening to people who claim that games can only be good and last if multiplayer pvp is the most important thing.


    Who said it was the most important thing?  It's well understood that PvP balance comes third after single player and co-op play.


    Also EMC is your idea.  You're the one who's being a little baby and trying to force it on everyone else.

  13. I've been hearing a lot of weird reports regarding collisions in Avorion.  People seemed to be blame the IFGs so I did some testing.  I was able to get crashes that should work as you'd expect.  However, sometimes this would happen...




    The point of collision was between the spike on my wing there and the asteroid.  You can see the asteroid lost a piece in the right place, but what's up with my ship?  It was destroyed, spike is fine, and I lost my engine.




    Going to the underside of the ship a gyro and thruster attached to it were also destroyed.  People have been chalking this up to the IFGs doing something weird so tested some crashes without IFGs.




    This isn't different at all!  But, it is!  As you can see I lost the arm on the other side.  The part farthest from the collision.


    I did some ship to ship collisions as well.  Those appeared to be working as intended when they happened.  I did have a problem with the ships passing through each other if I was boosting.

  14. not even speaking about turning them into some ridiculous, counter-intuitive mess.


    Thanks for the condescendent tone... But I think you aren't reading what I was proposing... I hope the rest of this forum users pay more attention to what's written before going around fabricating arguments.


    Thanks for the condescendent tone... But I think you aren't reading what I was proposing... I hope the rest of this forum users pay more attention to what's written before going around fabricating arguments.
    I attack ideas, not people. If you want a good example of someone being condescending, read your own post.


    I've been reading this and no one's being condescending.  If you're getting frustrated to the point where you automatically read the other poster's tone has hostile take a break.


    How is the system counter intuitive?  IGF increase block health.  Eventually the Hp of each block in equal to the Hp of the ship.  How progression is counter intuitive?

  15. Yeah I've encountered what I call telephone poles.  Extremely thin cross shaped ships that the RNG splits out quite commonly.  They are quite hard to hit.  They also spin very quickly.  Sometimes they confused and just spin in place becoming quite difficult to last good shots on.  Though, I guess that's why the new rotation caps where added.


    I'm testing the IFG mechanics when it comes to ramming.  So far asteroid collisions work as they should.  And I was able confirm the root block, no matter what block type it is, has Hp equal to the ship.  Next ship to ship collisions.  Stay posted.

  16. I'm a bit unsure about how things connect in this game, as in what counts as being still connected to the core.


    Let's say I put an extension (ex1) on the core, and then a generator on the end of that block.

    Now let's say I stuck an extender (ex2) on the generator, and made a chain of blocks ultimately leading back to the core, but being built upon each other on the way there.


    So, given that scenario, if ex1 is destroyed, will it also destroy the generator, ex2, and all blocks leading back to the core by the other path?


    That sounds like a good experiment.  Why not test it yourself?

  17. In any competitive environment


    Last time i checked Avorion wasn't e-sport material anyways, besides: the doesn't even intent to focus on PvP.

    PvP is one of many features, but the core of Avorion has nothing to do with it.


    => No reason to focus balance towards PvP use.


    While PvP isn't focus of Avorion the devs said they do consider PvP a feature and want to try and balance it.

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